• Current Donation Goals

Michael Tucker

Manchester United 4 Chelsea 0

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Really difficult to see what your qualm is,

Is it really that difficult? It depends on what your portraying my qualm to be. If my qualm is that Lampard is beyond criticism on a first match and should have a period of grace where nobody can say anything negative about him then I suppose yes, my qualm would be quite difficult to see. But as an intelligent poster you know very well that thats not my qualm , so probably best not to play dumb to make a false point. If on the other hand my qualm is that certain posters  (as predicted)  have made a judgement that on that ONE game he is taking the team in the wrong direction , then I think my qualm against that position is fairly easy to see, even if you dont necessarily agree with it which is absolutely fine. But please don't insinuate things I haven't said.

 

7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

unless it is as simple as 'I love Lampard and cannot hear anything even only vaguely resembling a word against him'.

Again that depends on your portrayal/meaning of the phrase "I love Lampard" doesn't it.  We all love Super Lamps don't we? The man, the player, the Chelsea legend. But do I 'love him' as a manager? Well just hold your horses there my friend. I'd like to be given a little time to see what he's made of against a variety of teams , in a variety of situations, with a more complete squad, maybe with some good/bad transfer purchases of his own choice. What exactly are you waiting for? Probably the same as me I expect. So I have a question for you...are you at some point, capable of recognising and acknowledging Lampard as a very good manager who can lead us back to good times?  But the question is, at what point would you be so bold as to make that statement? Lets for arguments sake say we beat United 4 nil on Sunday. Would you be prepared to stand up and say "this is the man to take us forward ...I can see his vision and he needs to change nothing". You wouldnt be so stupid would you? Can you see my qualm now? 

 

7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

could you honestly say that you don't think a manager with his management career so far needs to adapt, improve etc.? 

Most probably but then I've only seen one competitive game so I really wouldn't know if he needs to "adapt" the approach that he's decided he will take this season or not. Do you? He might do a Zidane and win 3 CLs (he's had more practical management experience than when Zizi took over at Madrid). He might do a Pep. Or he could do a Kerry Dixon. But as Chelsea supporters we all hope he will do well and try and look on the positive rather than negative side at the start of a season. And I have to say I did see a few positives on Sunday. Some just see 4 nil but I get that...it was a very disappointing scoreline... but as any neutral will tell you , the scoreline was a harsh one would you not agree?

 

7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Surely the argument for Lampard is that he needs do to those things and be given the chance to do them? 

 A chance to show what he can do first would be very nice....But what things could we lecture Lampard and his players on after this game? Tell Tammy to aim 6 inches to the right next time, tell Zouma not to be an idiot, ask Dave to start showing some leadership qualities, tell Pedro not to give the ball away in dangerous areas so we don't get caught on the break, drop Tammy and start with Giroud, drop someone else and start with Pulisic, tell Kante to get fitter quicker? Change all his tactics and preseason work? What words of wisdom should we whispering to SFL for our next Premier league game at home to Leicester . I'm sure he's all ears. For the record for United I would have started with Giroud , I would have started with Pulisic and I would also have started with Kante until he got tired. But then we might have lost 6-0. For Leicester I'll leave it to Frank as we all should.

 

7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

The counter-position would be that he doesn't need to learn anything and the mistakes of Sunday can happen over and over again with no issue. 

I'm assuming you realise that no one has taken that position . And you are aware that  right now he will  be looking at and working on the good things and bad things about Sunday....he won't need any prompting from us. And I'm also assuming that you know he's not going to tear up his ideas and footballing vision at this stage of the season. The counter position is in fact the one that says Lampard is not prepared to learn anything from mistakes he makes regardless of what he says to the media. If that's someones position on him then they should come right out and say it. Probably a bit early in the day though. 

Edited by NoblyBobly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Again that depends on your portrayal/meaning of the phrase "I love Lampard" doesn't it.  We all love Super Lamps don't we? The man, the player, the Chelsea legend. But do I 'love him' as a manager? Well just hold your horses there my friend. I'd like to be given a little time to see what he's made of against a variety of teams , in a variety of situations, with a more complete squad, maybe with some good/bad transfer purchases of his own choice. What exactly are you waiting for? Probably the same as me I expect. So I have a question for you...are you at some point, capable of recognising and acknowledging Lampard as a very good manager who can lead us back to good times?  But the question is, at what point would you be so bold as to make that statement? Lets for arguments sake say we beat United 4 nil on Sunday. Would you be prepared to stand up and say "this is the man to take us forward ...I can see his vision and he needs to change nothing". You wouldnt be so stupid would you? Can you see my qualm now? 

I think you are saying that despite your love for SFL, you are quite capable of ebing objective about SFL's potential weakness as a manager.
AND despite others equal love for SFL they are incapable of being objective about SFL's potential strengths.
odd one that.

13 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

He might do a Zidane and win 3 CLs (he's had more practical management experience than when Zizi took over at Madrid).

No he hasn't, he really has not.  Go look Zidane up in Wikipedia.

14 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

 A chance to show what he can do first would be very nice....But what things could we lecture Lampard and his players on after this game? Tell Tammy to aim 6 inches to the right next time, tell Zouma not to be an idiot, ask Dave to start showing some leadership qualities, tell Pedro not to give the ball away in dangerous areas so we don't get caught on the break, drop Tammy and start with Giroud, drop someone else and start with Pulisic, tell Kante to get fitter quicker? Change all his tactics and preseason work? What words of wisdom should we whispering to SFL for our next Premier league game at home to Leicester . I'm sure he's all ears. For the record for United I would have started with Giroud , I would have started with Pulisic and I would also have started with Kante until he got tired. But then we might have lost 6-0. For Leicester I'll leave it to Frank as we all should.

There was some very good advice from JM on Sky.  SFL said he doesn't listen to others :)  (not that I would ever take that kind of quote literally).

The advice was to get more experienced players on the pitch (Giroud, and more time for Kante and Willian similar to you).  And it was that if you press high you have to score because otherwise bad things are going to happen (they did).  And it was that if you play a Man U without Lukaku, they are superbly set up to counterattack you, but will really struggle against a compact defence.
 

22 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

For Leicester I'll leave it to Frank as we all should.

For Leicester, and especially Norwich and Sheff U, the set up we had for Man U away would work fine I reckon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NoblyBobly said:

Is it really that difficult? It depends on what your portraying my qualm to be. If my qualm is that Lampard is beyond criticism on a first match and should have a period of grace where nobody can say anything negative about him then I suppose yes, my qualm would be quite difficult to see. But as an intelligent poster you know very well that thats not my qualm , so probably best not to play dumb to make a false point. If on the other hand my qualm is that certain posters  (as predicted)  have made a judgement that on that ONE game he is taking the team in the wrong direction , then I think my qualm against that position is fairly easy to see, even if you dont necessarily agree with it which is absolutely fine. But please don't insinuate things I haven't said.

 

Again that depends on your portrayal/meaning of the phrase "I love Lampard" doesn't it.  We all love Super Lamps don't we? The man, the player, the Chelsea legend. But do I 'love him' as a manager? Well just hold your horses there my friend. I'd like to be given a little time to see what he's made of against a variety of teams , in a variety of situations, with a more complete squad, maybe with some good/bad transfer purchases of his own choice. What exactly are you waiting for? Probably the same as me I expect. So I have a question for you...are you at some point, capable of recognising and acknowledging Lampard as a very good manager who can lead us back to good times?  But the question is, at what point would you be so bold as to make that statement? Lets for arguments sake say we beat United 4 nil on Sunday. Would you be prepared to stand up and say "this is the man to take us forward ...I can see his vision and he needs to change nothing". You wouldnt be so stupid would you? Can you see my qualm now? 

 

Most probably but then I've only seen one competitive game so I really wouldn't know if he needs to "adapt" the approach that he's decided he will take this season or not. Do you? He might do a Zidane and win 3 CLs (he's had more practical management experience than when Zizi took over at Madrid). He might do a Pep. Or he could do a Kerry Dixon. But as Chelsea supporters we all hope he will do well and try and look on the positive rather than negative side at the start of a season. And I have to say I did see a few positives on Sunday. Some just see 4 nil but I get that...it was a very disappointing scoreline... but as any neutral will tell you , the scoreline was a harsh one would you not agree?

 

 A chance to show what he can do first would be very nice....But what things could we lecture Lampard and his players on after this game? Tell Tammy to aim 6 inches to the right next time, tell Zouma not to be an idiot, ask Dave to start showing some leadership qualities, tell Pedro not to give the ball away in dangerous areas so we don't get caught on the break, drop Tammy and start with Giroud, drop someone else and start with Pulisic, tell Kante to get fitter quicker? Change all his tactics and preseason work? What words of wisdom should we whispering to SFL for our next Premier league game at home to Leicester . I'm sure he's all ears. For the record for United I would have started with Giroud , I would have started with Pulisic and I would also have started with Kante until he got tired. But then we might have lost 6-0. For Leicester I'll leave it to Frank as we all should.

 

I'm assuming you realise that no one has taken that position . And you are aware that  right now he will  be looking at and working on the good things and bad things about Sunday....he won't need any prompting from us. And I'm also assuming that you know he's not going to tear up his ideas and footballing vision at this stage of the season. The counter position is in fact the one that says Lampard is not prepared to learn anything from mistakes he makes regardless of what he says to the media. If that's someones position on him then they should come right out and say it. Probably a bit early in the day though. 

A very long take down that means very little unless you say who it is you has dared make such awful, damning judgements of Lampard after one game and where/when they did this. I am not seeing any sign of it in this thread. There is a very strange irony to you objecting to me 'insinuating' unfair meanings to your posts here when honestly, you're arguing with yourself. No one here is taking Lampard apart as you are suggesting, and I'd be backing up your posts if they were. 

Lampard is going to get stuff 'wrong' (in commas because this is a forum and 'wrong' will generally be a matter of opinion). Hopefully most of those things will be small, temporary or important learning points we come back from stronger. Some of things, hopefully most of them, will be earlier in his time here. 

Anyone being disrespectful to him will get a tough ride, quite rightly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blue Rod   

I just hope that we don't throw away the baby with the  bath water. I actually saw some very good things in our performance on Sunday. Our passing was quite good until we gave the  ball away. In fact most of the time we conceded possession was for overdoing the good things.

I have watched matches under experienced managers when we got stuffed and came away with not a single positive thing to say about our performance.  Sunday was not one of them. 

In the end we have to remember that there is a difference between being poor in your job and  being naive. On Sunday's performance I would say Lampard was naive on the day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

I just hope that we don't throw away the baby with the  bath water. I actually saw some very good things in our performance on Sunday. Our passing was quite good until we gave the  ball away. In fact most of the time we conceded possession was for overdoing the good things.

I have watched matches under experienced managers when we got stuffed and came away with not a single positive thing to say about our performance.  Sunday was not one of them. 

In the end we have to remember that there is a difference between being poor in your job and  being naive. On Sunday's performance I would say Lampard was naive on the day. 

You have been making a lot of sense recently, Blue Rod.
We played in a style that might do well against a lot of PL teams - the 16 likely to finish below us.

Yes it was naive to play that way at OT, especially when they have so much more pace without Lukaku.
But a manager is a manager no matter how many years he has done it.  It is poor for any manager to be that naive, especially one who has actually played at OT I guess 20 times.

 

Am I the only one who worries how much he listens to Jody Morris?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blue Rod   
1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

You have been making a lot of sense recently, Blue Rod.
We played in a style that might do well against a lot of PL teams - the 16 likely to finish below us.

Yes it was naive to play that way at OT, especially when they have so much more pace without Lukaku.
But a manager is a manager no matter how many years he has done it.  It is poor for any manager to be that naive, especially one who has actually played at OT I guess 20 times.

 

Am I the only one who worries how much he listens to Jody Morris?

Honestly, there is not much I can disagree with from the points you've just made. The more I reflect on that performance on Sunday, the more I wonder what might have been if we were a bit more foxy in our approach. So, yes, I'm with you in that respect. 

Regarding the influence of Jody Morris, coaches coach, managers manage. If Lampard didn't learn that after Sunday, then he is not ready to manage at this level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

Honestly, there is not much I can disagree with from the points you've just made. The more I reflect on that performance on Sunday, the more I wonder what might have been if we were a bit more foxy in our approach. So, yes, I'm with you in that respect. 

Regarding the influence of Jody Morris, coaches coach, managers manage. If Lampard didn't learn that after Sunday, then he is not ready to manage at this level. 

No. We came undone on Sunday not because  our approach was naive, but because the players we had in key defensive positions made crucial mistakes. They weren't up to the task on the day. The approach was fine. In attack we outplayed them and we were unlucky not to go 2 ahead. Instead the defensive shortcomings cost us big time. Better players, (and we have key replacements to come in), and we will be more secure. If that is achieved then we have no need to stifle our attacking threat, on the contrary we should nurture it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ham   
12 minutes ago, PeteRobbo said:

No. We came undone on Sunday not because  our approach was naive, but because the players we had in key defensive positions made crucial mistakes. They weren't up to the task on the day. The approach was fine. In attack we outplayed them and we were unlucky not to go 2 ahead. Instead the defensive shortcomings cost us big time. Better players, (and we have key replacements to come in), and we will be more secure. If that is achieved then we have no need to stifle our attacking threat, on the contrary we should nurture it.

Hope you're right Pete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xCELERYx   
16 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

We spent £70m on a keeper when the options in the squad were Cabellero and kids, and another £50m or so on a position that was at that time being filled by Bakayoko and Drinkwater. 

We evidently did not buy who you would have wanted us to buy, but the money was spent in places it needed to be spent. It just so happens that in an ideal world we'd have spent more money on more players across more positions, I.e. what any club would do given the option. 

A keeper we could have had for a fraction of the cost months prior with a bit more forward thinking. Jorginho may have been a better midfield body, but he was a rather specialist purchase that could just as easily end up a square peg within a different style/system.

I'd say the priorities of where we spent didn't completely align with our biggest needs. Outside of Kepa, there's a strong case that central defence (for example) was bigger need than say midfield. Of course, it's a somewhat subjective situation because everyone is going to have their own views as to what positions contain greater importance. For me though, central defence was a must, and has been for awhile. As it stands we're going to suffer for it this season because of a lack of foresight. It is what it is though I suppose. Gotta roll with it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xCELERYx   
10 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

LOL. £360m spent on new players 2015/16 and 2016/17... 

But let's pretend that didn't happen shall we?

Unless you're legally blind or just insufferably dense,  NET SPEND was the measure being used quite clearly in my post. 

You know, the ultimate figure the club spends out of their own pocket once sale revenue is taken into account. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.