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Tammy Abraham

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12 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Sigh. If it’s not Chelsea fans it’s absolutely ridiculous the club should take flack for it. 

Surely you are able to see that. So... What’s your point with the bolded bit? I haven’t claimed it’s fans from other clubs, I asked if it’s established it was Chelsea fans. A world of difference I’d say. 

But maybe I’m not “woke” enough. 

You're choosing to read an attack against you where there isn't one. 

My point is we can tie ourselves in knots deciding who is and isn't a fan. From the tweets I've seen, it looks to me like some are from people who actively don't like and don't in any sense follow Chelsea, and others from people who want us to win games but whose 'fanhood' could be questioned in a myriad of other tedious ways. 

This is something I have consistently said in any matters related to racism, anti-semitism, historic abuse etc... I genuinely and absolutely could not care less about 'flack' we get from the press or world at large so long as I feel we are doing the right thing. I think there's much greater integrity in the club having a look at the tweets and publicly saying 'that's sh*t and not something we stand for or want associated with us' than there is assessing who is and isn't a fan and going on the defensive, a la Liverpool or Tottenham. 

Edited by thevelourfog

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16 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

You're choosing to read an attack against you where there isn't one. 

My point is we can tie ourselves in knots deciding who is and isn't a fan. From the tweets I've seen, it looks to me like some are from people who actively don't like and don't in any sense follow Chelsea, and others from people who want us to win games but whose 'fanhood' could be questioned in a myriad of other tedious ways. 

This is something I have consistently said in any matters related to racism, anti-semitism, historic abuse etc... I genuinely and absolutely could not care less about 'flack' we get from the press or world at large so long as I feel we are doing the right thing. I think there's much greater integrity in the club having a look at the tweets and publicly saying 'that's sh*t and not something we stand for or want associated with us' than there is assessing who is and isn't a fan and going on the defensive, a la Liverpool or Tottenham. 

If it happened at the ground or in the close proximity of the ground I’d be fully behind you. Then it is our responsibility and we should act accordingly. 

On a social media platform not so much. Especially given the circumstances we aren’t even sure they are “fans”. It’s actually not much the club can do except meaningless words that won’t change a thing. I don’t think the persons responsible for this would care if the club condemns it or not. Condemning it might even have the opposite effect. 

This is clearly a case for the police and no one else. Otherwise we are approaching grounds where the club should condemn racism every time it happens, regardless of team or target and physical/virtual location. We aren’t the police or defenders of all ethnic backgrounds. Then we are moving into the realms of being a completely different type of organisation instead of being a football club. 

By the way, yes, if you accuse me of behaving like Liverpool that pretty much is the definition of a personal attack. Just for future reference. 

 

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1 hour ago, The_Ghost said:

If it happened at the ground or in the close proximity of the ground I’d be fully behind you. Then it is our responsibility and we should act accordingly. 

On a social media platform not so much. Especially given the circumstances we aren’t even sure they are “fans”. It’s actually not much the club can do except meaningless words that won’t change a thing. I don’t think the persons responsible for this would care if the club condemns it or not. Condemning it might even have the opposite effect. 

This is clearly a case for the police and no one else. Otherwise we are approaching grounds where the club should condemn racism every time it happens, regardless of team or target and physical/virtual location. We aren’t the police or defenders of all ethnic backgrounds. Then we are moving into the realms of being a completely different type of organisation instead of being a football club. 

By the way, yes, if you accuse me of behaving like Liverpool that pretty much is the definition of a personal attack. Just for future reference. 

You asked if we even knew if these were Chelsea fans, and then haven't engaged at all in my responses to that. I seems to me you weren't genuinely asking that question, and instead just wanted an argument with someone 'woke' who you could 'sigh' at. 

I'd be okay with the club, practical difficulties aside, being very broadly anti-racist. I do not believe being anti-racist is a police-only matter. I agree it may not always achieve much when it comes to idiots making abusive social media posts, but think you underestimate what it achieves when people who too often find themselves on the receiving end of abuse see that the club will stick up for them rather than quabble over 'responsibility'; none of us are to 'blame' for anyone else's bullsh*t, all of us have a responsibility to do even the smallest things about it if we want better than that bullsh*t. 

If you behave as if Liverpool FC have... Well, then it will be hard for me to understand why you get upset when the comparison is made. 

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When I read #Frankout is trending its clearly not initiated by Chelsea supporters, we may sometimes be fickle but we give the incumbent a bit more time , these are IMO West Ham fans who never got over him leaving them. Some of the Tammy ones are being done by some Chelsea fans but many are not, they are coming from the faceless cover of social media where they can hide in anonymity

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45 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

You asked if we even knew if these were Chelsea fans, and then haven't engaged at all in my responses to that. I seems to me you weren't genuinely asking that question, and instead just wanted an argument with someone 'woke' who you could 'sigh' at. 

I'd be okay with the club, practical difficulties aside, being very broadly anti-racist. I do not believe being anti-racist is a police-only matter. I agree it may not always achieve much when it comes to idiots making abusive social media posts, but think you underestimate what it achieves when people who too often find themselves on the receiving end of abuse see that the club will stick up for them rather than quabble over 'responsibility'; none of us are to 'blame' for anyone else's bullsh*t, all of us have a responsibility to do even the smallest things about it if we want better than that bullsh*t. 

If you behave as if Liverpool FC have... Well, then it will be hard for me to understand why you get upset when the comparison is made. 

Oh dear. I asked, and you replied that it didn't seem they were genuine fans.

So... Pretty much what I expected the case to be. No real Chelsea fan would racially abuse one of our biggest talents because he missed a penalty in a meaningless penalty shoot-out. So my reply to that is why should the club or our fan base be tainted by the actions of other clubs fans or idiots in general? Where do we draw the line? That's not shifting blame, that's being rational. If you committ a crime I won't officially take the blame. I might say it's awful you committed this crime, but I won't take the blame for it. You seem to say I should which is a very odd view to take. 

As for your last comment, get a grip. Last time I engaged with you at length, you basically called me a nazi. Now I'm a scouser. Read what I say and stop reading what you want me to say.

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1 hour ago, The_Ghost said:

1. Oh dear. I asked, and you replied that it didn't seem they were genuine fans.

2. So... Pretty much what I expected the case to be. No real Chelsea fan would racially abuse one of our biggest talents because he missed a penalty in a meaningless penalty shoot-out. So my reply to that is why should the club or our fan base be tainted by the actions of other clubs fans or idiots in general? Where do we draw the line? That's not shifting blame, that's being rational. If you committ a crime I won't officially take the blame. I might say it's awful you committed this crime, but I won't take the blame for it. 3. You seem to say I should which is a very odd view to take. 

4. As for your last comment, get a grip. Last time I engaged with you at length, you basically called me a nazi. Now I'm a scouser. Read what I say and stop reading what you want me to say.

I'm aware of how tedious this gets for readers, so last post in response. 

1. This is at best a misreading or misremembering, and at worst a lie. It would be a silly lie. Anyone interested can click a page back and see what I said... That at least one tweet I saw was from an account with a history that suggested they followed Chelsea FC and have wanted the team to win games, but that what makes for a 'genuine' fan is a can of worms and, imo, a deeply tedious discussion and likely argument. 

2. Sadly, in my 30 or so years of home and away match going, I have heard Chelsea supporters racially abuse Chelsea players. Including very good, very important and very successful Chelsea players. I'd not make the argument that it's been common, but I know it happens and I think most supporters of most clubs will have heard similar at one point or another. It happens. It isn't hard to believe it happened on this occasion. 

3. Very literally said no one is to blame for anyone else's behaviour in my previous post. Again, anyone can easily read if bothered. It is hard for me to be polite about pointing out that 'blame' and 'responsibility' are different words with different meanings when it is just so plainly obvious. All of us will, be it at work or home, today fix or sort something we weren't to blame for but find ourselves responsible for addressing. This is not a complicated idea. 

4. You have very literally, and in a very easily proven way, misrepresented what I posted only a page or so ago. Telling me to 'get a grip' and then positioning me as if I have abused you is, imo, not just rude but also see through. 

Let's also remind ourselves of what the club have actually done... 

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2019/08/16/frank-Lampard--disgusted--at-racist-comments-towards-tammy-abrah?cardIndex=1-3

 

Just the one news item on the official website, and a single tweet referencing the same press conference. Just Lampard saying he finds racial abuse from 'so-called' supporters disgusting, and saying it's not what the club stands for. And all in response to a direct question from a non-club employee about it. 

So the 'club' said very little, and certainly did not take the 'blame' at any point. It just called out racism as 'disgusting' and said it isn't something it endorses. Imagine having a problem with that. 

Edited by thevelourfog
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Ham   

To be fair I think Ghost was only actually opposed to the club having to make any such statement unless there was evidence that a Chelsea fan was responsible for the comment and not, for example, a rival club troll. 

I haven't followed this on twitface so I'm not at all clear on whether it has been proven that this was a Chelsea fan.  

I realise of course that the question posed to SFL was "what do you think of racism?"

Edited by Ham

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30 minutes ago, Ham said:

To be fair I think Ghost was only actually opposed to the club having to make any such statement unless there was evidence that a Chelsea fan was responsible for the comment and not, for example, a rival club troll. 

I haven't followed this on twitface so I'm not at all clear on whether it has been proven that this was a Chelsea fan.  

I realise of course that the question posed to SFL was "what do you think of racism?"

Yes, you would be correct Ham. 

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56 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

4. You have very literally, and in a very easily proven way, misrepresented what I posted only a page or so ago. Telling me to 'get a grip' and then positioning me as if I have abused you is, imo, not just rude but also see through. 

 

I’m sorry but this is plainly incorrect. I can pull up on the post where you likened me to a Nazi and two posts in a row you’ve accused me of behaving like Liverpool. 

But at least we agree on something - this is tedious. Luckily some members on here understood what I meant with my original post. You didn’t, such is life. We move on. 

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I am always a bit dubious where these anonymous insults come from. Its just far too easy to slur a club and vilify its name while at the same time upset its high percentage of black players... and I'm not certain even an idiot is happy for that to happen. Sterling got horrific racial abuse via emails from "Liverpool supporters" but it could just as easily have come from Chelsea or Man United fans who just trying to stir the pot and cause finger pointing.

The case that always interested me was the Anders Fisk incident (the ref in infamous Barca game with dressing room incident). He received death threats from "Chelsea supporters" through email and I think direct phone calls. He subsequently retired from football, our name was dragged through the mud, we were called the enemy of football bla bla bla. And yet no one was ever brought to book. No arrests, no clues, just a massive **** storm. Surely huge resources must have gone into tracking down those emails/phone calls but never any statements of results or progress (not that I heard anyway).   My feeling is that either there were arrests and they were buried, or the perpetrator very neatly and cleverly covered their tracks. I've met a few Chelsea Headhunters in my time and I can assure you that they aren't the sharpest tools in the box.  

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