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Tammy Abraham

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16 minutes ago, Ham said:

2) Goes without saying unless one party was told by the media that he'd been racially abused and the other was Colin Wing.  Whose life was destroyed and who achieved sainthood?

Colin Wing has been banned by the club using a balance of probabilities basis for judgement.  Which makes it, at least in the club's eyes, unlikely that he is innocent.

Who achieved sainthood?

19 minutes ago, Ham said:

1) We get it.  You're the most "woke" member on here and that's commendable but I don't accept that someone potentially attempting to engineer a false picture of racism in a particular fanbase would be a "petty business", whether that's Chelsea or otherwise. 

Everything in the media is a false picture of something.  That is how it is used - to manipulate ordinary folk.  Twitter more than anything.
At least this would be a distortion of something minor by some nameless idiots which is harmful in reality only to a few footballers.
We should be far more concerned about the football fans that put bricks through the windscreen of visiting cars and coaches.

Or we should be far more concerned about the false pictures we are given of HK and Paris.

 

 

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Ham   
57 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

1) Colin Wing has been banned by the club using a balance of probabilities basis for judgement.  Which makes it, at least in the club's eyes, unlikely that he is innocent.

2) Who achieved sainthood?

3) Everything in the media is a false picture of something.  That is how it is used - to manipulate ordinary folk.  Twitter more than anything.
At least this would be a distortion of something minor by some nameless idiots which is harmful in reality only to a few footballers.
We should be far more concerned about the football fans that put bricks through the windscreen of visiting cars and coaches.

4 Or we should be far more concerned about the false pictures we are given of HK and Paris.

 

 

1) You're always the first to say "think about why things are done". Colin Wing back in his seat in the front row was never going to happen.  They had to find a way to give him a lifetime ban.  I would remind you that the CPS/police didn't conclude "We think he said it but can't prove it".  The were advised by experts specifically that his tongue didn't make the movement needed to make the "L" sound in "black".  They accepted that it was more likely that he said "Manc".

Sorry to labour this point but it's very important.

2) Sterling, due to the fear felt by the press.

3) Are you agreeing with me that these racist tweets could possibly be from people other than fans of the clubs in question?

4) I'd rather discuss football and Chelsea in particular.

Edited by Ham
Typo

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1 hour ago, Ham said:

1) You're always the first to say "think about why things are done". Colin Wing back in his seat in the front row was never going to happen.  They had to find a way to give him a lifetime ban.  I would remind you that the CPS/police didn't conclude "We think he said it but can't prove it".  The were advised by experts specifically that his tongue didn't make the movement needed to make the "L" sound in "black".  They accepted that it was more likely that he said "Manc".

Sorry to labour this point but it's very important.

2) Sterling, due to the fear felt by the press.

3) Are you agreeing with me that these racist tweets could possibly be from people other than fans of the clubs in question?

4) I'd rather discuss football and Chelsea in particular.

1.  I don't recall the Police saying what advice they had received.  But it was always unlikely he'd be prosecuted, not in anyone's interest, least of all Sterling's.
You seem to judge everything else on the club's motive.  Seems probable to me that the club was able to find more than enough evidence of other incidents to want to ban him - indeed if I had sat near a loud mouth using the C word I might make up a fake complaint just to get rid of him.  But I seriously doubt it would be necessary.

2.  Sainthood?

3.  Yes they could.  So what.  If they can be caught, prosecute them, if not forget it.

4.  Then get off your high horse about other fans "engineering a deception".

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7 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

To you maybe, but not to me. I'm not at all bothered by what, if I'm honest, is to me the petty business of which fan base 'deserves' a reputation and who might try to engineer such a reputation taking hold. What does bother me is what it is like to be on the receiving end of abuse, whatever the motivation, inclination or identity of the abuser. My expectation is that it is fair more painful to be on the end of any racial abuse or discrimination than it is to have a load of idiots in a statium, pub or online forum assume you're a racist. The latter has only ever caused me the slightest and very easily ignored inconvenience. 

Perhaps I should have started my post by saying all types of abuse... including racial, physical, sexual, sexist, bullying etc are very very upsetting for the victim . More so than someone watching it. I could have said that but I didn't want to insult anyone's intelligence but yes your expectation is correct. And the other thing that was pretty obvious in all this , is how upsetting and painful this must have been for Tammy after what must have been a very difficult few days.  I'll broaden this out a little further.

He has achieved what thousands upon thousands of English kids could only dream about. Through his talent, hard work and perseverance he is playing for the team he loves and joined as a 8 year old. He has reached the first team, he is in a cup final against Liverpool but he may have felt he let the team down after a great performance. Through missing a pen those very fans that he hoped would one day chant his name send him abuse mixed with racial insults. Now I dare say Tammy and most other young black men in this country and others have suffered racial abuse on many occasions....sad fact of life.  I'm hoping he's the kind of character that can just treat those comments with the contempt they deserve.  But it is my opinion that if he also thinks those comments  came from Chelsea fans he will have found that particularly upsetting. I know I would. Consequently, if it transpired through investigation that it was a troll trying to stir up trouble and had nothing to do with his own fans, it might come as a bit of a relief (if thats the right word) .  It is also of course, an injustice to the fans and the club if this is the case, but primarily Tammy should know that all the fans wish him well and want him to succeed.  Chelsea should use everything at their disposal to locate the culprits. 

If it turned out to be Liverpool supporters responsible, are you telling me you would feel no better about the situation? And by the way, if anyone has been directly accused of abuse of a serious nature, and they are completely innocent, that is not an inconvenience that can be easily ignored. I actually know someone who is sitting in a prison cell right now because of a false accusation made purely from spite. Not the same I know but its the thin end of a very large wedge in today's society.  

 

Edited by NoblyBobly

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17 hours ago, Ham said:

1) We get it.  You're the most "woke" member on here and that's commendable but I don't accept that someone potentially attempting to engineer a false picture of racism in a particular fanbase would be a "petty business", whether that's Chelsea or otherwise. 

2) Goes without saying unless one party was told by the media that he'd been racially abused and the other was Colin Wing.  Whose life was destroyed and who achieved sainthood?

It's important in these politically correct times that there is some scepticism and balance.

I don't think I'm especially 'woke', and if I did and thought it was important to show it off I don't think this is where I'd come to do it. 

To a point, I agree that it is a real harm against a person to have them unfairly and unjustly regarded a bigot. I'll admit a flame burns a little in me when people assume I think or act a certain way because I go to a certain ground every fortnight. I just don't think it compares much to being on the receiving end of the bigotry. I think it is 'petty' in a direct comparison, which is what I said. The consequences for people mistakenly thinking you're racist are going to pale in comparison to the consequences of being on the receiving end 99% of the time. 

On Colin Wing... I don't understand why a few who persist with such certainty about what he might have said and done when none of us know. 

I think it's crazy to think we live in 'politically correct times'. Hopefully it's not too much of a beer into politics to simply name Trump and Boris! 

11 hours ago, NoblyBobly said:

Perhaps I should have started my post by saying all types of abuse... including racial, physical, sexual, sexist, bullying etc are very very upsetting for the victim . More so than someone watching it. I could have said that but I didn't want to insult anyone's intelligence but yes your expectation is correct. And the other thing that was pretty obvious in all this , is how upsetting and painful this must have been for Tammy after what must have been a very difficult few days.  I'll broaden this out a little further.

He has achieved what thousands upon thousands of English kids could only dream about. Through his talent, hard work and perseverance he is playing for the team he loves and joined as a 8 year old. He has reached the first team, he is in a cup final against Liverpool but he may have felt he let the team down after a great performance. Through missing a pen those very fans that he hoped would one day chant his name send him abuse mixed with racial insults. Now I dare say Tammy and most other young black men in this country and others have suffered racial abuse on many occasions....sad fact of life.  I'm hoping he's the kind of character that can just treat those comments with the contempt they deserve.  But it is my opinion that if he also thinks those comments  came from Chelsea fans he will have found that particularly upsetting. I know I would. Consequently, if it transpired through investigation that it was a troll trying to stir up trouble and had nothing to do with his own fans, it might come as a bit of a relief (if thats the right word) .  It is also of course, an injustice to the fans and the club if this is the case, but primarily Tammy should know that all the fans wish him well and want him to succeed.  Chelsea should use everything at their disposal to locate the culprits. 

If it turned out to be Liverpool supporters responsible, are you telling me you would feel no better about the situation? And by the way, if anyone has been directly accused of abuse of a serious nature, and they are completely innocent, that is not an inconvenience that can be easily ignored. I actually know someone who is sitting in a prison cell right now because of a false accusation made purely from spite. Not the same I know but its the thin end of a very large wedge in today's society.  

I think it is fair to hypothesise that Tammy may be more hurt by abuse from Chelsea fans than others. I expect though that he will be hurt either way. 

As for my feelings, I suppose that gets to the crux of my point. They don't matter that much. I realise it will feel like an accusation, but I think there is something not quite right about the rush among football fans and football clubs (thankfully imo though not ours, which takes action rather than equivocating or pointimg the finger) to consider or hypothesise about trolls and conspiracies rather than look inwards. I was genuinely quite struck by the (I expect good faith) notion in your's and Ham's posts that standing clearly and explicitly with those suffering abuse goes without saying. I'm not sure it does, and I think many people on the receiving end of abuse would really take strength and hope from us saying the things we often think go without saying. 

One of the few things I think we as a public forum really have power over is that Chelsea fans from all backgrounds can see our posts. Imagine the damage it does to the lies that we are racist scum if people read us first unequivocally condemning racism rather than speculating about how we might be the victims. 

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On 8/22/2019 at 0:29 PM, thevelourfog said:

I think it is fair to hypothesise that Tammy may be more hurt by abuse from Chelsea fans than others. I expect though that he will be hurt either way. 

As for my feelings, I suppose that gets to the crux of my point. They don't matter that much. I realise it will feel like an accusation, but I think there is something not quite right about the rush among football fans and football clubs (thankfully imo though not ours, which takes action rather than equivocating or pointimg the finger) to consider or hypothesise about trolls and conspiracies rather than look inwards. I was genuinely quite struck by the (I expect good faith) notion in your's and Ham's posts that standing clearly and explicitly with those suffering abuse goes without saying. I'm not sure it does, and I think many people on the receiving end of abuse would really take strength and hope from us saying the things we often think go without saying. 

One of the few things I think we as a public forum really have power over is that Chelsea fans from all backgrounds can see our posts. Imagine the damage it does to the lies that we are racist scum if people read us first unequivocally condemning racism rather than speculating about how we might be the victims. 

Thats absolutely fine.  If you don't want to discuss the incidence with Tammy and Pogba without first a full and rounded condemnation of all racism then you should do that. And I too would be concerned if an outsider read these pages and came across anything resembling racist comments or behaviour or in any way condoning the abuse that Tammy and Pogba got. But I'd be equally disappointed if  this site allowed such comments to remain on view for more than a few minutes. And if I  go off piste on this subject I'm sure someone will let me know pdq.

This thread is talking about the abuse that Tammy got. It is not a thread entitled Racism in Football , although if there was one I'd be happy to right a piece for that and my personal experiences. This is about Tammy and subsequently Pogba receiving abuse from their own fans.   For me (and I may be wrong) that is the talking point. I don't think we had a thread last season when our players received racist abuse in the stands from Eastern European fans, or a thread when our fans got homophobic abuse from oppo fans, or a thread about anti semetic abuse aimed at Spurs fans. Maybe all these deserved their own thread and maybe if you felt strongly enough you should have started one. 

And yes , of course your feelings don't matter that much and neither do mine (unless either of us are an ethnic minority). But that does not change the undeniable fact that these tweets MAY not have had racism at their core (indeed they could have been written by a person of colour) but could have had a different motive I.e opposition fans enjoying an opportunity to blacken a clubs name. And if it works they might do it again and again and again. At what point would  you stand up and say "ok maybe we need to consider where this  home abuse ' is coming from".  Maybe with yourself , at no point, and thats absolutely fine ;  but I don't like the feeling that I'm being censured for making a perfectly valid point and following as closely as these 2/3 incidents did , I think its worth discussing . And if I went onto the Red Cafe sight and found a similar discussion taking place I would accuse them of grabbing the wrong end of an already grubby stick. 

I can sense that it is not a subject people like to discuss on here or join in on for fear  I expect of saying a wrong word in a wrong way and being jumped upon.  However I am very comfortable with my position on this subject and I'm sorry your seeing something you dont like.

Edited by NoblyBobly
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On 21/08/2019 at 10:29 PM, Ham said:

As always..... exhausting

My wife also needs to always have the last word!

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On 23/08/2019 at 8:11 PM, NoblyBobly said:

Thats absolutely fine.  If you don't want to discuss the incidence with Tammy and Pogba without first a full and rounded condemnation of all racism then you should do that. And I too would be concerned if an outsider read these pages and came across anything resembling racist comments or behaviour or in any way condoning the abuse that Tammy and Pogba got. But I'd be equally disappointed if  this site allowed such comments to remain on view for more than a few minutes. And if I  go off piste on this subject I'm sure someone will let me know pdq.

This thread is talking about the abuse that Tammy got. It is not a thread entitled Racism in Football , although if there was one I'd be happy to right a piece for that and my personal experiences. This is about Tammy and subsequently Pogba receiving abuse from their own fans.   For me (and I may be wrong) that is the talking point. I don't think we had a thread last season when our players received racist abuse in the stands from Eastern European fans, or a thread when our fans got homophobic abuse from oppo fans, or a thread about anti semetic abuse aimed at Spurs fans. Maybe all these deserved their own thread and maybe if you felt strongly enough you should have started one. 

And yes , of course your feelings don't matter that much and neither do mine (unless either of us are an ethnic minority). But that does not change the undeniable fact that these tweets MAY not have had racism at their core (indeed they could have been written by a person of colour) but could have had a different motive I.e opposition fans enjoying an opportunity to blacken a clubs name. And if it works they might do it again and again and again. At what point would  you stand up and say "ok maybe we need to consider where this  home abuse ' is coming from".  Maybe with yourself , at no point, and thats absolutely fine ;  but I don't like the feeling that I'm being censured for making a perfectly valid point and following as closely as these 2/3 incidents did , I think its worth discussing . And if I went onto the Red Cafe sight and found a similar discussion taking place I would accuse them of grabbing the wrong end of an already grubby stick. 

I can sense that it is not a subject people like to discuss on here or join in on for fear  I expect of saying a wrong word in a wrong way and being jumped upon.  However I am very comfortable with my position on this subject and I'm sorry your seeing something you dont like.

Odd, didn't get a notification saying you'd replied. Hadn't meant to ignore it. 

Two I'll make and then I'll move on; I think we've been polite and respectful to each other so no need to drag anything out further than that. 

The first is that the racist tweets (which I see Rashford has now also been the subject of) have racism 'at their core' no matter what the intention, motivation or identity of the person making them is. Even if it is to 'blacken our name'... Imagine your very being considered just an angle, just collateral damage to slander someone else. That's almost even more sickeningly racist to me, when your own existence is used to get at someone else. So it's racism, and needa to be called out for what it is either way. 

The second point is the whole censure thing. There is a tendency here and in plenty of football circles I feel for anyone who challenges from (I'll just own it) a more leftist/progressive/whatever we want to call it perspective to be framed as censoring or shutting down other people. That suggestion never seems to be made the other way round. Have your opinion and view, and I'll tell you (if I think you're worth talking to, and I do) if I disagree or think you have it wrong. And when you do the same to me, I'll take it for what it is rather than unfairly framing you as censoring me. 

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chara   
4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

 if I disagree or think you have it wrong. And when you do the same to me, I'll take it for what it is rather than unfairly framing you as censoring me. 

Absolutely....we should all "sign on" to this...

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