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Tammy Abraham

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Ham   
1 hour ago, NoblyBobly said:

Well there's a lot in that short sentence. I'm perfectly happy to be told by anyone that I'm wrong but we are not discussing Kante's best footballing position here, we are talking about racism, and if you tell me in a post that I seem more concerned about my own sensitivities than that of racist victims then I am going to react to it because you are 'unfairly framing' me in a fairly offensive way. Personally I think you could have stopped and thought before you insinuate something like that because in a way it is censuring me by trying to shame me. And no, I would hope I wouldn't do the same to you. I was not competing to see who was more sensitive or had a bigger moral conscience . Not one person on the this forum (I would hope) feels anything but abhorrence at some of this stuff delivered to Chelsea and Man United players.... a sentence like " go back to picking cotton you chimney sweep f....... n.....r" , is the kind of stuff we are dealing with here, but the shock and the outrage is the oxygen this kind of person thrives on and the more attention they get the better.  CFCnet could write an open letter containing our views on racism representing all our members views (maybe you could write it) but what would achieve with regards to these tweets? Nothing is the answer. 

My thoughts were that finding this person, exposing them as racists, exposing them as trolls, taking them through the courts (best case scenario) or least letting them know that we are aware of their intentions and what they are up to and then maybe to expect a knock on the door soon. This is the way to stop it....outrage for all its good intentions won't do it.   Build a profile, use every bit of technology available, then name shame and prosecute. It can be done (if this was a tweet from a serial killer he'd be in the nick by now)... and they may well all be Chelsea fans in which case we can all feel collectively ashamed. But if it proved to be a 14 year old kid on his computer from Hull seeing how much attention he could get, or a trolls using bots to retweet (we know some of the profile pictures were of black faces so fake accounts is a given), or a West Ham fan who wants  perpetuate the myth that we are all racists on the west side of town,  then I would look at this incident with a different eyes and maybe Tammy and other black Chelsea players would too (but I can't speak for them). With yourself, I do appreciate now that these different (but possible) scenarios are pretty much irrelevant and the language used is the only thing that needs to be looked at and condemned. I have no problem with that point of view at all and I'm sure many would agree with you.  I hope I can look at the wider picture without accusation.          

Of the tweets which gained the worldwide headlines regarding Pogba and Rashford, most appear to be from accounts with previous profile pics of black individuals.  One has the Grenada flag tucked away in the corner. One pretends to be an angry Man U fan but he's Liverpool.  Another says "You cost us the points you ******" but he's Man City, and black.

A number of black Twitter users have also called out a notorious racist troll as being Nigerian. 

I said before that I was very suspicious of the wording and the coordinated nature involving black players after penalty misses. The use of "slave" and "cotton-picking" is rife. 

This isn't a problem with racism per se.  This is someone trying to stir up a racism debate unnecessarily or just an arsehole and the press lapped it up.  

My point was that before clambering over each other to apologise on behalf of the downtrodden, at least make sure the victim is who you think it is. 

In these circumstances I believe that the victim here is anyone who tries to make the world a better place for different cultures to live together and not necessarily Pogba and/or Rashford.  They're the pawns.  

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Ham said:

Of the tweets which gained the worldwide headlines regarding Pogba and Rashford, most appear to be from accounts with previous profile pics of black individuals.  One has the Grenada flag tucked away in the corner. One pretends to be an angry Man U fan but he's Liverpool.  Another says "You cost us the points you ******" but he's Man City, and black.

A number of black Twitter users have also called out a notorious racist troll as being Nigerian. 

I said before that I was very suspicious of the wording and the coordinated nature involving black players after penalty misses. The use of "slave" and "cotton-picking" is rife. 

This isn't a problem with racism per se.  This is someone trying to stir up a racism debate unnecessarily or just an arsehole and the press lapped it up.  

My point was that before clambering over each other to apologise on behalf of the downtrodden, at least make sure the victim is who you think it is. 

In these circumstances I believe that the victim here is anyone who tries to make the world a better place for different cultures to live together and not necessarily Pogba and/or Rashford.  They're the pawns.  

 

 

I understood your point first time around and agree, there are trolls that are just dumb and hide behind anonymity and there are trolls with an agenda to create discord when maybe there was non.

How many emails have we all received from rich Nigerian princes etc offering a slice of millions and playing into our greed? Some will believe it but all should not be taken as seen.

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2 hours ago, NoblyBobly said:

Well there's a lot in that short sentence. I'm perfectly happy to be told by anyone that I'm wrong but we are not discussing Kante's best footballing position here, we are talking about racism, and if you tell me in a post that I seem more concerned about my own sensitivities than that of racist victims then I am going to react to it because you are 'unfairly framing' me in a fairly offensive way. Personally I think you could have stopped and thought before you insinuate something like that because in a way it is censuring me by trying to shame me. And no, I would hope I wouldn't do the same to you. I was not competing to see who was more sensitive or had a bigger moral conscience . Not one person on the this forum (I would hope) feels anything but abhorrence at some of this stuff delivered to Chelsea and Man United players.... a sentence like " go back to picking cotton you chimney sweep f....... n.....r" , is the kind of stuff we are dealing with here, but the shock and the outrage is the oxygen this kind of person thrives on and the more attention they get the better.  CFCnet could write an open letter containing our views on racism representing all our members views (maybe you could write it) but what would achieve with regards to these tweets? Nothing is the answer. 

My thoughts were that finding this person, exposing them as racists, exposing them as trolls, taking them through the courts (best case scenario) or least letting them know that we are aware of their intentions and what they are up to and then maybe to expect a knock on the door soon. This is the way to stop it....outrage for all its good intentions won't do it.   Build a profile, use every bit of technology available, then name shame and prosecute. It can be done (if this was a tweet from a serial killer he'd be in the nick by now)... and they may well all be Chelsea fans in which case we can all feel collectively ashamed. But if it proved to be a 14 year old kid on his computer from Hull seeing how much attention he could get, or a trolls using bots to retweet (we know some of the profile pictures were of black faces so fake accounts is a given), or a West Ham fan who wants  perpetuate the myth that we are all racists on the west side of town,  then I would look at this incident with a different eyes and maybe Tammy and other black Chelsea players would too (but I can't speak for them). With yourself, I do appreciate now that these different (but possible) scenarios are pretty much irrelevant and the language used is the only thing that needs to be looked at and condemned. I have no problem with that point of view at all and I'm sure many would agree with you.  I hope I can look at the wider picture without accusation.          

*standing ovation*

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chara   
59 minutes ago, exiledblue said:

I understood your point first time around and agree, there are trolls that are just dumb and hide behind anonymity and there are trolls with an agenda to create discord when maybe there was non.

How many emails have we all received from rich Nigerian princes etc offering a slice of millions and playing into our greed? Some will believe it but all should not be taken as seen.

Trolls with an agenda...very true but they are not just "silly" trolls but very dangerous people who use ANY potentially divisive issue to sow discord and even reading this forum one can see how these tactics work...everyone condems but a little discord seeps in..that is where the danger starts..next step is usually the "look at what we agree on not our differences."

The "Discord" is not an issue as all are just voicing thoughts and everything the better for that BUT please don't dismiss the trolls as just idiots.

Usually dissapointment at a missed penalty or open goal leads to a yelling at the player but very few if any true Chelsea supporters use a players colour as part of a curse in fact I'm sure we see only the shirt colour not a skin shading.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Ham said:

Of the tweets which gained the worldwide headlines regarding Pogba and Rashford, most appear to be from accounts with previous profile pics of black individuals.  One has the Grenada flag tucked away in the corner. One pretends to be an angry Man U fan but he's Liverpool.  Another says "You cost us the points you ******" but he's Man City, and black.

A number of black Twitter users have also called out a notorious racist troll as being Nigerian. 

I said before that I was very suspicious of the wording and the coordinated nature involving black players after penalty misses. The use of "slave" and "cotton-picking" is rife. 

This isn't a problem with racism per se.  This is someone trying to stir up a racism debate unnecessarily or just an arsehole and the press lapped it up.  

My point was that before clambering over each other to apologise on behalf of the downtrodden, at least make sure the victim is who you think it is. 

In these circumstances I believe that the victim here is anyone who tries to make the world a better place for different cultures to live together and not necessarily Pogba and/or Rashford.  They're the pawns.  

 

 

The whole thing seemed a bit too co- ordinated  to me, and not just the rantings of an angry Chelsea racists sitting in his house in Battersea wanting to give this new young Chelsea player (whom we are all pinning our hopes on to keep our season from collapsing) a piece of his racist mind for missing a pen. As for Rashford, he is the pride of United and one of their big hopes for the future. The fact that they have picked on this popular player also smelt fishy to me.

 In his previous posts TVL mentioned that this is not a new thing and its been going on all the time and that I should just google a black players name next to racists insults and stuff would come up (maybe he said black players in general but it makes no odds)... but it did give me cause to google something. These 'racists' were very evident in past years(and lets face it , I'm damn sure we still have them at Chelsea) . So I googled Tiemoue Bakayoko/racist insults. This is a black player that cost big money who infuriated so many of us with his poor performances, poor football skills and lazy looking attitude. The boiling point for me came when under Conte at a vital part of our season, when a win was vital for our top four hopes, he managed to get himself stupidly sent off after about 15 mins.Here was a target to get 'home racists insulting members of their own team through social media or tweets...except their weren't any .Not that I could find on google . Baka got plenty of racist stuff sent his way when he was in Italy . Lazio fans apparently brought blow up bananas to a game and sang a song with the catchy lyric "would you like a banana Bakayoko". TBH I don't think any of us are surprised by those lovely Italian ultras. But the point is why now with Tammy, and not then with Baka? The answer IMO is that Baka was just too low profile for it to have the desired effect and subsequent big media coverage. Plus, outside of our own circle, it was not widely known how much Baka was frustrating us on the pitch.   On the other hand , our first black academy product to ever play as CF, in a big European cup game against arch rivals was the perfect platform to shock and get attention. Like shooting apples in a barrel.

Not surprisingly the Red Cafe is having similar discussions to us. Most admitting racists lurk within the club, some suspicious of these tweets, some suspecting outside forces/oppo supporters and some claiming that because of Uniteds worldwide fanbase, its quite possible, that a tweet can come from some Man United supporting ex Serbian war general  whose last proper job was to ethically cleanse his town of all its muslims by locking them in a burning building.  The world is big and it  can be a vile place. The internet brings it into every living room. We all have our own filters and we use them as we see fit.      

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chara   
1 hour ago, NoblyBobly said:

The whole thing seemed a bit too co- ordinated  to me, and not just the rantings of an angry Chelsea racists sitting in his house in Battersea wanting to give this new young Chelsea player (whom we are all pinning our hopes on to keep our season from collapsing) a piece of his racist mind for missing a pen. As for Rashford, he is the pride of United and one of their big hopes for the future. The fact that they have picked on this popular player also smelt fishy to me.

 In his previous posts TVL mentioned that this is not a new thing and its been going on all the time and that I should just google a black players name next to racists insults and stuff would come up (maybe he said black players in general but it makes no odds)... but it did give me cause to google something. These 'racists' were very evident in past years(and lets face it , I'm damn sure we still have them at Chelsea) . So I googled Tiemoue Bakayoko/racist insults. This is a black player that cost big money who infuriated so many of us with his poor performances, poor football skills and lazy looking attitude. The boiling point for me came when under Conte at a vital part of our season, when a win was vital for our top four hopes, he managed to get himself stupidly sent off after about 15 mins.Here was a target to get 'home racists insulting members of their own team through social media or tweets...except their weren't any .Not that I could find on google . Baka got plenty of racist stuff sent his way when he was in Italy . Lazio fans apparently brought blow up bananas to a game and sang a song with the catchy lyric "would you like a banana Bakayoko". TBH I don't think any of us are surprised by those lovely Italian ultras. But the point is why now with Tammy, and not then with Baka? The answer IMO is that Baka was just too low profile for it to have the desired effect and subsequent big media coverage. Plus, outside of our own circle, it was not widely known how much Baka was frustrating us on the pitch.   On the other hand , our first black academy product to ever play as CF, in a big European cup game against arch rivals was the perfect platform to shock and get attention. Like shooting apples in a barrel.

Not surprisingly the Red Cafe is having similar discussions to us. Most admitting racists lurk within the club, some suspicious of these tweets, some suspecting outside forces/oppo supporters and some claiming that because of Uniteds worldwide fanbase, its quite possible, that a tweet can come from some Man United supporting ex Serbian war general  whose last proper job was to ethically cleanse his town of all its muslims by locking them in a burning building.  The world is big and it  can be a vile place. The internet brings it into every living room. We all have our own filters and we use them as we see fit.      

A great post with terrific research..really makes the point in a far more articulate way that there are really dangerous people out there hiding behind the true idiots. Remember being told by coppers who were at various "riot" type incidents that the ones at the front with the real protest motives were used by people behind the front starting the rock etc throwing..same from guys I knew who were in Northern Ireland...not taking sides just pointing out it's not new just updated with technology.

Again great post and from  me a salute to all those on here raising voices over the issues...try not to do politics here but this issue is beyond politics.

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paulw66   

FWIW, I also think the more media attention this gets, the more likely it will keep happening.

To some people this sort of thing is funny, so next time a black player misses a penalty, or gets a red card, there will be more of this. 

The anonanimty that a phone, laptop from half way round the world provides, means that until the social media platforms take action, there is very little recourse for these idiots 

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Jasonb   

I would expect there is already the power to go to social media companies and demand to know the identity of the blogger when an offence has been committed.

After all I find when I join a forum and I have joined a number and not just about football I need to give an email address and then confirm on a link.

 

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paulw66   
13 minutes ago, Jasonb said:

I would expect there is already the power to go to social media companies and demand to know the identity of the blogger when an offence has been committed.

After all I find when I join a forum and I have joined a number and not just about football I need to give an email address and then confirm on a link.

 

That doesn't prove who you are. 

I can go on hotmail, gmail, outlook whatever, create an email address in the name of "John Smith", where I don't have to give my physical address or any personal data. There is no verification process that I am who I say I am. With that email, I can create a Twitter, Facebook and Instagram account, free to post vile abuse at my own will without detection. 

If the user doesn't provide any personal data, the companies are reliant on an IP address, which is only of use if they have no VPN. 

What socail media companies should do, is what some betting websites are now doing, where in order to register an account, you have to send them a scanned passport or drivers licence. That would provide an identity trail. 

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Ham   

I don't know whether anyone has noticed but Sky have completely moved on from this issue and I think that's almost certainly because, and having delved deeper, they've discovered that there's less to the story than they first anticipated.

Yesterday, and as part of their ongoing "tackling racism" campaign they had moved onto the incredibly low percentage of Asian (Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi etc) professional footballers in the UK. 

The true genesis of these tweets really should be a story but in order to cover that they'd firstly need to admit that they got it massively wrong in the first place by not verifying the story before running with massive headlines. 

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