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Sciatika   

How about go zonal but adapt it. Put someone on the line and have the CBs/backs pick up the "key" threats on the opposite side so we don't see a midget having to challenge someone who is 6'6. Leave someone on halfway as an "out ball!", preferably someone who can hold the ball up such as the CF (or Kante).

Edited by Sciatika

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Ham   
4 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Lots of people complaining about the ref......... with a 9pm kick off local time, I was too p*ssed to work out what was going on TBH. 

What did he do wrong? 

 

4 hours ago, King Kante said:

I thought he was fine. He let quite robust challenges go but he did it for both sides. 

Yeah nothing too bad.  He wasn't pulling Lille up for those nudge in the back challenges on the CF.  The ones that Morata used to do his dying swan act after. 

Tammy either stayed on his feet  and kept possession anyway or got straight back up.  

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12 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

... so we should go m4m like......

There is a lot missing in these moans about our Zonal.  Mostly that almost no club does it differently.

Refine or improve out zonal makes a lot of sense, though clear suggestions are missing.  Go back to m4m requires a lot of explanation - none has been supplied..  

Going back to m2m means that we will have players tracking attackers and not allowing them to get the run/jump on them the whole time. 

I honestly, do not see how our zonal marking is going to improve when the keeper does not come off his line to collect the ball in those channel's the defence leave attackers to run into.

As I have said on a number occassions, our biggest single problem at defending set pieces is Kepa. When defending zonally you need him to step out and either collect or punch the ball away. People say that it is dangerous for him to go because he can end up looking silly. This is true, but the rate at which we are conceeding goals and the fact that when he stays he has no real chance of saving anything that goes towards goal, means he has to do it or we switch back to m2m. 

Edited by King Kante

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58 minutes ago, King Kante said:

Going back to m2m means that we will have players tracking attackers and not allowing them to get the run/jump on them the whole time. 

Is that a vote for m2m?  And how do you explain the refusal of most big clubs to play m2m?

59 minutes ago, King Kante said:

As I have said on a number occassions, our biggest single problem at defending set pieces is Kepa.

We weren't great last year a zonal, but we were a lot lot better than we are now.  The difference isn't Kepa.  It could be the CBs, it could be SFL vs Sarri (and their teams) or it could be (and certainly is in part) a big improvement in opponents against zonal.  Zonal is the this year, last year it was the exception.

Again - why aren't we set up to score against zonal marking - surely VAR & zonal should work for us at the other end?

And I still don't see any explanation for so many other clubs changing to it.  We are sounding like Hoddle and Ferdinand on TV claiming to be experts about why the old ways were the best without any understanding of why real footballers and coaches have changed.  Bring back telegrams I say.

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paulw66   
7 hours ago, King Kante said:

 

As I have said on a number occassions, our biggest single problem at defending set pieces is Kepa. When defending zonally you need him to step out and either collect or punch the ball away. 

Except Kepa was our goalie last year and we weren't shipping set piece goals. He isn't the problem.

Whoever the goalie is, they aren't going to be able to claim every cross, and if you give the attacker a free header, it won't take many set pieces before they score.

Take this game specifically, that was never a cross he could get to.... Free header from about 8 yards.... The issue is either the zonal marking and or those trying to execute it 

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10 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Is that a vote for m2m?  And how do you explain the refusal of most big clubs to play m2m?

We weren't great last year a zonal, but we were a lot lot better than we are now.  The difference isn't Kepa.  It could be the CBs, it could be SFL vs Sarri (and their teams) or it could be (and certainly is in part) a big improvement in opponents against zonal.  Zonal is the this year, last year it was the exception.

Again - why aren't we set up to score against zonal marking - surely VAR & zonal should work for us at the other end?

And I still don't see any explanation for so many other clubs changing to it.  We are sounding like Hoddle and Ferdinand on TV claiming to be experts about why the old ways were the best without any understanding of why real footballers and coaches have changed.  Bring back telegrams I say.

This is part of it. Zonal, especially ours has been figured out. In football nothing stays constant, for instance when we went 343 under Conte for the first 4-6 months teams really struggled with it until it eventually got figured out and then opposition teams started to expose it's flaws. Same goes with our Zonal, it was ok but not great, and now it's obvious flaws are being exposed by all and sundry. 

As for your last comment Droy. No need to be sarcastic. I am actually a fan of VAR and just feel it is being poorly implimented to back up poor calls on the pitch. In day to day life I am also a big proponant of automation etc. I am as far away from being a luddite than anyone. 

4 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Except Kepa was our goalie last year and we weren't shipping set piece goals. He isn't the problem.

Whoever the goalie is, they aren't going to be able to claim every cross, and if you give the attacker a free header, it won't take many set pieces before they score.

Take this game specifically, that was never a cross he could get to.... Free header from about 8 yards.... The issue is either the zonal marking and or those trying to execute it 

A lot of what I mention above is applicable to this, I.e. the zonal system and Kepa's lack of aerial ability is now being exposed game to game. 

Of course. No keeper will get everything, I have never said that they can. However, when you leave the channels in the zonal system free for people to run into game in game out, then it is going to be brutally exposed sooner or later. We are now at later. 

As for this goal, it was virtually on the 6 yard line and it came in looping. This is most definitively a cross a GK can come and deal with. Unless everyone thinks he is simply too small to challenge a tall attacker. 

 

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40 minutes ago, King Kante said:

As for your last comment Droy. No need to be sarcastic. I am actually a fan of VAR and just feel it is being poorly implimented to back up poor calls on the pitch. In day to day life I am also a big proponant of automation etc. I am as far away from being a luddite than anyone. 

I'm not accusing you of being a luddite.  I'm just missing a serious discussion of why Zonal is chosen so often.  Mostly I am missing it from "TV experts".
So I'm against VAR precisely because I think when you analyse why it has been introduced you find that the rationale is for bad reasons not good. And there are far far better reasons to use TV review after matches are finished  to eliminate dangerous play.  Not because of the tech.

In other words how do we explain what is wrong with zonal if we don't understand why so many other clubs use it.

40 minutes ago, King Kante said:

This is part of it. Zonal, especially ours has been figured out.

Quite - so we should be concentrating on getting our set pieces right.  We haven't.  And we are going through one of those periods where the set-piece taker is wondering what the runners will do, rather than the runners knowing where the ball is going and with at least 1 dummy run and 2 attempts at reaching the target.

41 minutes ago, King Kante said:

As for this goal, it was virtually on the 6 yard line and it came in looping.

 

Actually I think the looping crosses are part of the problem for defenders and keepers.  Robertson cross for example loops more than enough to cut out the keeper if he judges it slightly wrong.  We are conceding to crosses which Christensen couldn't reach but would have hit the next man, Alonso in the stomach.  Brilliant or perhaps rather lucky by Robertson.

 

Edited by Droy was my hero

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21 makes a dummy run past the near post.

24 makes a dummy run, checks and pulls back to get the 2nd ball, if it happens.

7,4 and 6 are running at the 6 yard line that we are defending, attempting to get on the end of the cross.

How are we ever going to stop them from scoring from a standing start on the 6 yard line?

Not rocket science - if you run and jump you will get higher than if you just jump. This is the zonal weakness.

The very least we should be doing is getting in the way.

lille.jpg

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Also, we have 7 bodies more or less in the 6 yard box, Perhaps they would all be more effective just lined up on the goal line! :-)

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