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chelboy   
1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

 

He offers a whole lot of things from defending as part of a midfield, covering the FB, ball winning, offering an out ball and being the perfect wall to play 1-2s off.  People see him as a poor man's Hazard, when in fact he does all the things Hazard never did do.

Like I said the POSITION in which he plays in end product is crucial. Like you said Hazard does not do all those things but his end product is far greater. No winger in the PL works harder than Willian but overall as a player in the forward line you simply must do better. I don’t fully blame him because he is not a final third kind of player. As I said he is a central midfielder playing on the wings being asked to do a lot in the final third. 

 

26 minutes ago, LeBoeufsGolfBall said:

Of course it doesn’t. I said he is still our most creative AM. Yeah he can make bad decisions, yeah he doesn’t score enough........he’s still our most creative AM though.

As for the agenda, he is this seasons scapegoat. It will ramp up in a few weeks time for spell, then it will die down again when he scores a couple of goals. I’ve not looked back on the match thread because I don’t have too, check for yourself if you want, he will receive the largest amount of negative comments in the last two games. Yet he scored an important second goal to seal the win and then the winner.

The level of our AM’s is not exactly high at the moment. We just lost our best one who did a lot in the final third for us. Willian is probably the best one we have and also the best suitable for what Frank wants. 2 of the other AM’s struggle with the physical side of the game at the moment and the other one is young returning from a long term injury.

Willian does deserve to play at the moment for sure but people in the thread such as myself do explain why he can be wasteful with the ball. I replied to your post because you made it seem like Willian gets unfair stick for being wasteful in possession numerous times. I have always highlighted what Willian is good at but like I said he plays in a crucial position for end product. There are so many times he dribbles into good positions only to make the wrong decision. Every season he misses out on a potential 10+ assists if he simply had better decision making. What makes it more frustrating is that Willian is actually technically good enough to make these passes but just can’t seem to fully understand what to do. If he was technically not good enough to make these passes it would be less frustrating because then you would know he is simply not good enough and should be moved along. 

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Ham   

On the Jorginho discussion there is still a middle ground between the love and hate. 

In games I expect us to win going in, he's excellent but I'm still mindful of how his lack of physicality and speed is exposed defensively against the elite teams.  

I'm still on the fence despite a run of easy games. 

 

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30 minutes ago, Ham said:

On the Jorginho discussion there is still a middle ground between the love and hate. 

In games I expect us to win going in, he's excellent but I'm still mindful of how his lack of physicality and speed is exposed defensively against the elite teams.  

I'm still on the fence despite a run of easy games. 

 

Yes I agree. His lack of mobility and strength is an issue and will create problems at times, it’s a real shame he is not that athletic because he is a fantastic footballer.

Its one of the main reasons why I believe we need a physical and mobile DM. I think 433 is probably our best formation and the strength in depth and different options we would have available to chose from with Kante, Kovacic,Jorginho,RLC and a DM would look very good. We could rotate and always have a very good 3 in there and adapt the players to the opposition and competition we are playing.

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Leo91   

I don't even think it's about elite teams. If we're up against a physical side he's going to struggle. 

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chelboy   
3 hours ago, Ham said:

On the Jorginho discussion there is still a middle ground between the love and hate. 

In games I expect us to win going in, he's excellent but I'm still mindful of how his lack of physicality and speed is exposed defensively against the elite teams.  

I'm still on the fence despite a run of easy games. 

 

Good player. When the game starts to stretch and become end to end he tends to struggle. Good at bringing the ball out and dictating the tempo. Best suited against possession teams. Counter attacking teams tend to exploit his weaknesses. 

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5 hours ago, chelboy said:

Like I said the POSITION in which he plays in end product is crucial. Like you said Hazard does not do all those things but his end product is far greater. No winger in the PL works harder than Willian but overall as a player in the forward line you simply must do better. I don’t fully blame him because he is not a final third kind of player. As I said he is a central midfielder playing on the wings being asked to do a lot in the final third. 

 

The level of our AM’s is not exactly high at the moment. We just lost our best one who did a lot in the final third for us. Willian is probably the best one we have and also the best suitable for what Frank wants. 2 of the other AM’s struggle with the physical side of the game at the moment and the other one is young returning from a long term injury.

Willian does deserve to play at the moment for sure but people in the thread such as myself do explain why he can be wasteful with the ball. I replied to your post because you made it seem like Willian gets unfair stick for being wasteful in possession numerous times. I have always highlighted what Willian is good at but like I said he plays in a crucial position for end product. There are so many times he dribbles into good positions only to make the wrong decision. Every season he misses out on a potential 10+ assists if he simply had better decision making. What makes it more frustrating is that Willian is actually technically good enough to make these passes but just can’t seem to fully understand what to do. If he was technically not good enough to make these passes it would be less frustrating because then you would know he is simply not good enough and should be moved along. 

This is pretty much where I am at with Willian. I call him the best ineffective player I have ever seen. As you say, he really should have been a central midfielder. I think the only reason he never played there is because he is loath to tackle and likes to slow down play too much. 

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Id like to know which posters out there haven't criticized, dug out or shown a  lack of faith in a player ( or coach for that matter)? Tell me who they are and Ill get rhe halo ready.  Jorhinho in fact, is one of a long list. Willian is prime target at rhe moment, so is Barcley. Our skipper Azpi has had a lot of stick for a while, Kepa and Pedro too are doubted. Kova got pelters from many on here last season and of course Lampard was shown little faith in succeeding by a fair few posters, and was even given stick after his first premier league game.

I could go on. But in my opinion,  Jorginho was rightly criticised last season. He disappointed me. I was expecting something better if I'm honest and he looked totally unsuited to this league. This was a player that Sarri intended to build a team around.  I saw a stat ( and dont know if its true) that he didn't created a single assist last season. For a creative player in midfield that is a poor poor stat, especially playing for a club that came 3rd in the league,  won a final and got to another. This season I have seen glimses of last season and glimses of something better, but if anyone reckons  this player should be ring fenced from critisism they are talking poppycock.

Personally I need more from him to turn my opinion. And when I see it consistently Ill be the first to praise him and praise him loudly. 

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32 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

 I saw a stat ( and dont know if its true) that he didn't created a single assist last season

You should have watched him then instead, he made hundreds of chances.  If he didn't create an assist then something is seriously wrong with the strikers we were using.  Nothing wrong at all with his creation or his contribution to attacking play.

Edited by Droy was my hero
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Ham   
17 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

You should have watched him then instead, he made hundreds of chances.  If he didn't create an assist then something is seriously wrong with the strikers we were using.  Nothing wrong at all with his creation or his contribution to attacking play.

Ok.  Let's make another stat to add to the long, long list already available;

Assists that would have been real assists had the strikers been better.

That would put Bojan at Stoke among the most successful players in recent history. Yay him!

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15 hours ago, LeBoeufsGolfBall said:

Of course it doesn’t. I said he is still our most creative AM. Yeah he can make bad decisions, yeah he doesn’t score enough........he’s still our most creative AM though.

As for the agenda, he is this seasons scapegoat. It will ramp up in a few weeks time for spell, then it will die down again when he scores a couple of goals. I’ve not looked back on the match thread because I don’t have too, check for yourself if you want, he will receive the largest amount of negative comments in the last two games. Yet he scored an important second goal to seal the win and then the winner.

I don't have an 'agenda' against Willian and it gets really boring on here when more than 1 person or a person says more than once anything negative against a player, it becomes an 'agenda'. People have differing opinions on players, they always will - does that mean I have an agenda? No. 

My issue, as I have stated various times is that as good as Willian is and has been, his decision making in the final 3rd isn't good enough. A player with his ability should be doing better, it's as simple as that to me. The expectations on Willian are high and rightly so, he's our most experienced attacking player, he is probably one of, if not the most technically gifted player we have and yet his output over the last 2 years simply isn't good enough (in my opinion, without an agenda).

7 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

You should have watched him then instead, he made hundreds of chances.  If he didn't create an assist then something is seriously wrong with the strikers we were using.  Nothing wrong at all with his creation or his contribution to attacking play.

If you were watching him as closely as you tell us to, you'd see the amount of time he could and should play a player in and either doesn't at all or does it a second too late and the chance is gone. It's incredibly frustrating.

 

To be clear, I like Willian and I always have, I have stuck up for him on here many times before and off here with friends who slate him, but at the moment I do honestly expect more from him, that is all. I'm not gutted when I see him in the lineup but I am sometimes gutted during a game when he doesn't quite do what we would expect of him.

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