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JaneB

Bayern Munich 4 Chelsea 1 (7 - 1 on aggregate)

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18 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

The top part is just a circular argument.  You could equally say the table shows we have the better manager and therefore our players were to blame today.

It is a reasonable response to the idea, consistently put forward in these threads, that it is poor players and "individual errors" to blame for the less dignified moments of our season. I think most people would think the point of a coach or manager would be to add some value to the players they have. Try having a team without a manager, and then try having one without any players.

It's a circular argument if you're pointlessly debating who has the better manager out of Team A and Team B. That is certainly not the argument I thought I was having.

I'm with you on what the real question is, and it's why I'm not jumping up and down about how good a season we've had. The outcome is good, probably even better than good tbh; I didn't see us making top 4. How we got there ... Well, that doesn't inspire me with confidence. My take on our young players this season was that their challenge was never outperforming those in the squad already, but those who we could bring into the squad in 2020 and 2021. Some have succeeded in that, others have had decent seasons in themselves but haven't quite met that challenge. I feel Frank had the same challenge in front of him. I'm not sure if he's done a Mount or done a Hudson-Odoi. I think how we start next season will be very important to the people's whose opinions on that really matter.

Edited by thevelourfog

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1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

It is a reasonable response to the idea,

I'm with you on the idea, just not with that as evidence.

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

My take on our young players this season was that their challenge was never outperforming those in the squad already, but those who we could bring into the squad in 2020 and 2021

Yes.  Squeezing out Barkely, Christensen,  Bats, Emerson, Pedro was not a great achievement.

But only Pulisic and Mount look like regular starters in a title winning team.  Abraham looked likely for a few months.

Willian and Giroud look more essential than ever despite being 32 & 34 by the time the Prem starts.

Kepa Rudiger Jorginho all look lesser players this year than last.  And Kante has developed fitness issues he never had before.

In terms of rebuild I'm not sure the club has got very far (other than having a clear list of who can go for certain).  Marina (and team) and Mount take most of any credit available.

(James - at least a stone overweight for a footballer - I can only imagine what he might be at a fighting weight, I can't imagine him playing two PL seasons without serious injury as he is.  Needs to talk to Zouma who does seem determined to keep his weight under control.  I'm concerned about the fitness back up to Frank as I am with the coaches.  They are straight out of last year's Academy team too).

 

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59 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

I'm with you on the idea, just not with that as evidence.

Yes.  Squeezing out Barkely, Christensen,  Bats, Emerson, Pedro was not a great achievement.

But only Pulisic and Mount look like regular starters in a title winning team.  Abraham looked likely for a few months.

Willian and Giroud look more essential than ever despite being 32 & 34 by the time the Prem starts.

Kepa Rudiger Jorginho all look lesser players this year than last.  And Kante has developed fitness issues he never had before.

In terms of rebuild I'm not sure the club has got very far (other than having a clear list of who can go for certain).  Marina (and team) and Mount take most of any credit available.

(James - at least a stone overweight for a footballer - I can only imagine what he might be at a fighting weight, I can't imagine him playing two PL seasons without serious injury as he is.  Needs to talk to Zouma who does seem determined to keep his weight under control.  I'm concerned about the fitness back up to Frank as I am with the coaches.  They are straight out of last year's Academy team too).

 

The fitness angle is a good point.  I don't think they've looked fighting fit all season and the two hamstring injuries yesterday point to poor preparation. 

Add that to our inability to take a corner or defend a corner or carry out instruction or take one for the team or make angles for the pass or play vertical passes or turn possession into goals and SFL is looking down the barrel in regards to his future if you ask me. 

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49 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The fitness angle is a good point.  I don't think they've looked fighting fit all season and the two hamstring injuries yesterday point to poor preparation. 

Add that to our inability to take a corner or defend a corner or carry out instruction or take one for the team or make angles for the pass or play vertical passes or turn possession into goals and SFL is looking down the barrel in regards to his future if you ask me. 

Inability to have a plan for a corner is blatantly obvious (and one in a dozen games they have a plan then forget it - often by h/t)

The coaches are coaching to improve the long term career of the players.  Not to win the match on Saturday.  They have never done anything else.

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1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

The fitness angle is a good point.  I don't think they've looked fighting fit all season and the two hamstring injuries yesterday point to poor preparation. 

Hamstring injuries are predominantly fatigue injuries. I think SFL did what any manager would do - go with the advice of the medical staff in terms of the players' readiness to feature.

We are talking about players playing 2 to 3 times a week after almost 4 months off. There are bound to be issues. Couple that to the fact that we really were in a terrible fight for top 4 and you can understand why some of them featured so much and why we lost Willian, Gilmour, Kante, Azpili, Pulisic and Loftus-Cheek in the end. 

In terms of set piece prep, well we already look better with Caballero in goal. Frank has more or less said its a personnel issue because in his day with DD, JT, Cech, Ivanovic, Ballack et al it was pretty much covered though I do recall us having problems under Scolari.

I am not absolving Frank - just saying its important to give the man some time to implement his own methods. We are talking about scrutinizing a manager who walked in after a transfer ban, had no reinforcements brought in during January AND had to resume the season after 4 months due to a pandemic.

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31 minutes ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

Frank has more or less said its a personnel issue because in his day with DD, JT, Cech, Ivanovic, Ballack et al it was pretty much covered though I do recall us having problems under Scolari.

Of course we had problems under Scolari.  
I bet JM, CA and Conte never thought it was a personnel issue.  It was their issue.
I find it very telling that Frank is passing the buck on this one.  Not that he lacks the balls to take responsibility, just that it shows he has chosen development of the players over winning the next game.

 

31 minutes ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

In terms of set piece prep, well we already look better with Caballero in goal.

I just don't see that.  Besides for every 2 crosses or corners he comes out to take there is one where he fails to reach it, and the lightest goalbound header would score.
He does this whenever he gets picked as if he is trying to make a point.
(Though I do hear the huge sigh of relief among fans on this forum.  It probably makes a different viewing experience.)

33 minutes ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

Hamstring injuries are predominantly fatigue injuries. I think SFL did what any manager would do - go with the advice of the medical staff in terms of the players' readiness to feature.

Oh I am sure.  The question though is whether any of the fitness coaches are able to give good advice.  None of them have been involved a first team season of 50+ games, they have been with youth and U23 teams with 25-30  games a season  (except Chris Jones, but then he is now a football coach not a fitness coach).

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46 minutes ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

Why we lost Willian, Gilmour, Kante, Azpili, Pulisic and Loftus-Cheek in the end. 

I wonder why Arsenal didn't lose six players. 

Or why United didn't. 

Or Wolves. 

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9 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I wonder why Arsenal didn't lose six players. 

Or why United didn't. 

Or Wolves. 

Not sure Arsenal or United have a team you could name where 6 players couldn't be sidelined without most of us even noticing.  2 or 3 players and 22 all much the same.

(Much like we became after the title in 2017 - but we are all hoping it won't last much longer).

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1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

 

Oh I am sure.  The question though is whether any of the fitness coaches are able to give good advice.  None of them have been involved a first team season of 50+ games, they have been with youth and U23 teams with 25-30  games a season  (except Chris Jones, but then he is now a football coach not a fitness coach).

 

Well even the best coaches have periods where players fall to injuries quickly. In fact, before the lockdown Mourinho was dealing with that as well.

I get that these guys aren't the most experienced. But which doctor alive is experienced in dealing with pandemics such as these and seasons punctuated by 4 month stoppages and hectic follow up schedules?

Plus, would the club really allow our medical staff to fall as far behind as you are suggesting? Not IMO. If they were that sub-standard I reckon changes will be made this summer.

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11 minutes ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

Well even the best coaches have periods where players fall to injuries quickly. In fact, before the lockdown Mourinho was dealing with that as well.

I get that these guys aren't the most experienced. But which doctor alive is experienced in dealing with pandemics such as these and seasons punctuated by 4 month stoppages and hectic follow up schedules?

Plus, would the club really allow our medical staff to fall as far behind as you are suggesting? Not IMO. If they were that sub-standard I reckon changes will be made this summer.

Yeah we have had the same head doctor for 8 or 9 years.  I'm sure the medics are fine, and for their role experience outside the Prem is equally relevant.

 I was thinking the fitness coaches rather than the medics.  I'm sure they talk with the medics, but as far as I can see there is no prior experience of coaching at adult level in the fitness or the coaching teams other than 3 having a year at Derby and Hilario.
There is no experience of playing professional football other than Lampard Morris and Hilario.

Our squad is full of placeholders for Marina to upgrade on.  The coaching team looks even more so.

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