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JaneB

West Ham United 3 Chelsea 2

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45 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Game management , at 2-2 we were comfortable , we'd got out of jail , we didn't need the points as much as they did , one would have been disappointing but we ended up with none because we should have done to them what they did to us , they should have been the side desperate for a winning goal and we should , settling for a point at least , sucked up the pressure and hit them on the counter . Very , very , very poor from the coaching side and the stupidest bunch of players we've ever had .

I want to agree, but I suppose the issue is we really cannot defend. Perhaps there is simply an acceptance of this among the coaches and players at this point, and so a deliberate plan to not even try closing shop or to suck up pressure because we know it absolutely will not work.

The 4 games since the return have really hammered it home for me; we don't have all the money or time in the world so will need to prioritise ruthlessly in the summer, and a CB and LB are so, so much more important than any other position. I know there aren't many brilliant CBs knocking about, but there are plenty who don't defend each set piece like it's their first.

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chelboy   

Can’t see what a holding man does for the third goal unless he literally is behind Christensen in line with Rudiger.  Christensen and Rudiger are in a 2 vs 1 with Antonio. Either Christensen gets to the ball first or fouls him. He can’t let him bring it down and play so easily then get beaten by a silly one-two. There’s many duels between Two CB’s and one ST all game. The defender that comes out to meet the ST has to stop him from playing by any means. They tend not to get booked for those kind of fouls. Once Christensen realises he is not getting to the ball first he then has to hold him up and foul him. Physically Christensen has to be on Antonio whether pulling him back or anything. He can’t allow him to play off like that. The team showed lack of discipline there to push up like that but CB’s still have a job to do and are the last line of defence that cover up for mistakes rather than make them. Last line (as in the two CB’s) should be the least error prone outfield players but with us it’s not that simple. 

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1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

I feel for Alonso. Being asked to play left back and left wing and he doesnt have the pace for it, which he can't help. And surprise, surprise, the bloke who had been on the field 5 minutes was fresher and quicker than Alonso who had spent 90 running up and down the wing. 

Yes; it is a well worn trope for full backs to get stick for not being able to be in two places at once.

My issue for the third goal isn't that he doesn't catch the player. As you say, he's clearly being asked to play as an attacker in most phases of play and that is where his strength lies. He's not the quickest, so he's probably not going to catch the attacker anyway. The issue is when he notices and starts to track back; he hadn't even realised what was going on.

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chelboy   
7 minutes ago, Never happy said:

I said last night that fail to make the CL and Lampard will be out, I stand by that.

I was slaughtered by certain people (Jane, I get that he's a legend and you love him) but he seems to continully make silly mistakes.

Lamps seems to pick players to play 5 or 6 games on the trott regardless of form and then leave them out for a few.

before lock down Kante was out, jorgi was playing, (if I remember he was due a one match ban), but jorgi wasn't playing bad, yet he can't get a game, yet Barkley now seems to be the flavour of the month.

Giroud plays after the lockdown, (signs a new deal),scores and is then ditched again.

Zouma ( I'm not his biggest fan) played in the game against Leicester, and is ditched yesterday.Tommori who is arguely our best CH, can't get a look in, is this just to try to get Christensen to sign a new deal?

same as Willian, he wants a new deal, Lampard clearly loves him, so continuely picks him, even though he will be gone at the end of the season.

which brings us to Alonso, brilliant going forward but slow as old boots, in last nights game there was no reason James couldn't have come on and Azpi (who was crap by the way), could have slotted in behind Alonso in the second half.

As for James, he seemed to have made the RB slot his own before lockdown, yet again Lampard decided to ditch him after lockdown.

I dare say the usual suspects will slag me off for saying this, but Lampard needs to make some hard desisions now he has everyone fit, and find his best team and stick with it.

You know Ziyech and Werner both said talking to Lamps helped them come here. Sacking him before playing them would be pretty comical. Regardless of where we finish he isn’t getting sacked. The only real hard changes he needs to make is in the window. He has no other choice but to buy a CB and decide very carefully who his two CB’s are for next season. If either is Christensen or Rudiger then I think we are still likely to have these moments from them. From what I have seen so far this season Rudiger and Christensen are more likely to make mistakes in defending rather than on the ball. While Zouma and Tomori are likely to make mistakes on the ball rather than defending. It’s clear one from each group should be playing most times. But one CB needs to leave this window either on loan or sold. 

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57 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Agreed all round, but it has cost us, more than it has helped us. 

Antonio's upper half was offside, but did that really change anything? In the same way Giroud scored with his head against United, but his toe was offside. Or Mount's foot was offisde about ten passes before we scored against Liverpool

VAR is a shambles, and I never wanted it!!! 

Totally agree, those three decisions are great examples. All three came where a team was working hard to find an equaliser/ get a foot in the game and had deservedly grabbed a goal, as a player it must frustrate and set you back mentally. To be fair to west ham they carried on and scored again minutes later, with us Girouds was the second dissallowed goal v United and we kind of fizzled out after that and V Liverpool there was half time in between but they came out firing and got their 2nd and decider before we to our credit swarmed all over them and got a goal back. The fact that they went back 4 passes to find Mounts offside heel seemed pretty odd imo...oh and he was facing his own goal.

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Jasonb   

I thought Frank might have started with James last night and had Zouma instead of Christensen for this one. 

Shocked to see Kante trying to win the header late on in the opposition D just before they broke for the winner, was that Frank's idea or Kante's indiscipline.

Is it Frank philosophy that always plays for a win rather than deciding to share the points?

 

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Arkie   

Shocked to see people complaining that we tried to win yesterday instead of settling for a draw. I can guarantee if we tried to hold on to one point, Lampard would be slated over here for cowardice.

Game management had nothing to do with our appalling performance last night.

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4 games 3 wins, on balance based on the performances that is pretty good.  After 3 wins I said that we were playing like under Conte in 16/17, getting results vastly better than performances suggested.  There is either luck or magic in that.  It looks like we were running on luck.

Their 2nd goal features a blatant dive for a penalty by Antonio.  Ref should stop the game and book him then.  VAR should treat the dive just as if it was a foul, over rule the goal and bring it back to the dive.  And TV should say the same.  Simple.

Just a note - I don't know if it something to do with all the virtue signalling, but I haven't seen 1 booking for a dive post restart and players seem to be getting fouls all the time for rolling over on losing the ball.  (We get the calls too, but don't do it much.  Grealish is making a career out of it.)

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I have no issue with Kante, but he isn't a "sitting" midfielder. His natural game is hunting the ball down all over the pitch, and to do that, you need someone who stays 

Hasn't had much time to learn the role either.  Lets hope he gets used more sensibly in the future.  The whole point of Kante is what he does out of position, tieing him down in a DM role is crazy.

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I feel for Alonso. Being asked to play left back and left wing and he doesnt have the pace for it, which he can't help. And surprise, surprise, the bloke who had been on the field 5 minutes was fresher and quicker than Alonso who had spent 90 running up and down the wing. 

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Yes; it is a well worn trope for full backs to get stick for not being able to be in two places at once.

My issue for the third goal isn't that he doesn't catch the player. As you say, he's clearly being asked to play as an attacker in most phases of play and that is where his strength lies. He's not the quickest, so he's probably not going to catch the attacker anyway. The issue is when he notices and starts to track back; he hadn't even realised what was going on.

Quite.  I think his realisation is not that he has been caught out of position though, it is that both Azpi and Kante are completely absent too.
If one gets blame for that 3rd goal, all 3 should.  Certainly Alonso's pace was irrelevant.

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

The third goal.......... we lose possession deep in their half. Our defensive midfielder and left back are both on the edge of their area, out of the game.

1 hour ago, chelboy said:

Can’t see what a holding man does for the third goal unless he literally is behind Christensen in line with Rudiger.  Christensen and Rudiger are in a 2 vs 1 with Antonio. Either Christensen gets to the ball first or fouls him. He can’t let him bring it down and play so easily then get beaten by a silly one-two. There’s many duels between Two CB’s and one ST all game. The defender that comes out to meet the ST has to stop him from playing by any means. They tend not to get booked for those kind of fouls. Once Christensen realises he is not getting to the ball first he then has to hold him up and foul him. Physically Christensen has to be on Antonio whether pulling him back or anything. He can’t allow him to play off like that. The team showed lack of discipline there to push up like that but CB’s still have a job to do and are the last line of defence that cover up for mistakes rather than make them. Last line (as in the two CB’s) should be the least error prone outfield players but with us it’s not that simple. 

And Azpi (out of shot but he doesn't get back either).  Feel sorry in this case for Rudiger and Christensen.
Christensen is up against 2 players.  If he hauls down the striker then the guy who later makes the pass can just run straight past Christensen who is on the ground while the ref plays on.
Rudiger meanwhile has two things to worry about - covering the 2v1 situation and covering the breaking RW.  Consequently when he does get to the RW he is moving too fast and the guy cuts inside him easily.

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

On last night specifically ... Personally, I think VAR helped us out. There is an infraction, and it's a great call if the officials actually make that call in real time. To go back and deliberate over it for 3 minutes  ... Nah, not for me and not what we were told VAR was for. Went our way last night, but the same revisionist approach to VAR has cost us dearly at points (Azpi vs Liverpool,  Giroud vs Man Utd) and I'd rather see those sort of calls left alone.

Not at all.  Soucek kicks the ball into the guy on the ground and then puts away the rebound.  Nothing to do with interference at all.  Blatant offside - as seen in the live view and the immediate replay (but never shown again in the 3.5 mins which IMO is proof the VAR team saw that clearly).  No idea what they spent so long on - probably checking the rule book to see if being hit in an onside position while having your head offside might be a loophole to stiff Chelsea with).

See above - there 2nd goal should have been disallowed too.  I blatant decision they wasted 3 mins over.  1 blatant decision they missed.  
Poor VAR and unfair on Cheslea.

 

1 hour ago, chelboy said:

You know Ziyech and Werner both said talking to Lamps helped them come here. 

Come on now - both were asked the question in the context "why didn't you go to a bigger club".  The correct answer would have been "Liverpool/City/ManU/RM/Barca didn't have the cash".
It's football - never take what people say as gospel.

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paulw66   
52 minutes ago, Arkie said:

Shocked to see people complaining that we tried to win yesterday instead of settling for a draw. I can guarantee if we tried to hold on to one point, Lampard would be slated over here for cowardice.

Game management had nothing to do with our appalling performance last night.

I have no issues with going for a win, but there is attacking, and there is kamikaze football 

I actually don't think anyone is annoyed we went for the win, but we didn't need to be quite so open 

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14 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

I have no issues with going for a win, but there is attacking, and there is kamikaze football 

Full marks to WHU for ropa doping in the 12th round and then coming back with a surprise knockout finish.  They looked absolutely dead for large parts of the game (sucked in Azpi Kante and Alonso perfectly).

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