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JaneB

Manchester United 1 Chelsea 3

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4 hours ago, Martin1905 said:

 I keep hearing people say Werner will play from the left but I've watched a lot of him, he's a proper striker who very rarely plays from the left, 4 times in 40 starts this season according to transfer market, so very much doubt he will play there much.

Maybe the idea is to play the two together but whatever happens as promising as Tammy started this season he needs a massive amount of improvement to stay in this side.

 

Yeh I see him playing up front too. I suspect Girouds renewal was to secure him for these games past his contract end, and also secure a fee if he goes this summer. I reckon there is an agreement he can leave, although would be good to keep him as both Tammy and Werner are running on to through ball type strikers and he offers something different.

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My guess is that we had someone lined up to come in as CF in January. Otherwise we would never have considered letting Giroud go then. Bats since then pretty much disappeared so I presume Frank has as much confidence in him as CF2 as we do. 

Werner I guess. 

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4 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I have put their current league positions in brackets. It's hardly bottom 6 teams only. 

If you take games against the "traditional big 6"......... so that's 10 games, with one to play, so 9. he didn't start City (h) spurs (h) or man utd (h). So 6 games....it is hardly a big sample*. And of course, every striker scores more against the worst teams. becasue they are worse. 

Edit - *and in some of those games, how many clear cut chances did we create? 

I get what your saying and I suppose there is different ways of looking at things.

I think Tammy has done Ok, like I said before maybe you could make an argument that he's done much better than just Ok. I was one that was looking forward to this season with the transfer ban,  seeing what our youngsters could do and watching them develop. I'm pretty sure I said so much on here. We've won everything under Roman and spending a year or two with Frank as manager and playing the kids, maybe with some success would have been amazing and I would have happily seen that continue. 

Things have changed though, we now look like serious players again in the transfer market, maybe the most serious, maybe the only serious ones.  We are going to have to be extremely ruthless if we want to suddenly get back to the top and no one, including the manager is safe.

The ruthless way to look at Tammy is that he had a good start, scored 10 goals in 12 games but since then he has scored 4 in 24 and only 2 this calendar year.  Let's be honest, that's pretty rubbish.

Then you look at who he has scored against, the teams I mentioned earlier and you could make an argument, if one was to be ruthless, that although 14 goals in in 32 games seems ok when you break it down it's not great especially when you add in the fact that he has only scored in 9 of the 32 games he has played in. 

I ask myself the question, which top 10 club would he go to and be first choice? The obvious ones are Burnley and Sheffield United, maybe Wolves but that's a stretch and that's it. Were no longer looking to compete with those clubs for a top 6 finish like at the start of this season, we look like we want to compete with the absolute best and going forward we need to look at every single player and make some very difficult decisions. 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Martin1905 said:

I get what your saying and I suppose there is different ways of looking at things.

I think Tammy has done Ok, like I said before maybe you could make an argument that he's done much better than just Ok. I was one that was looking forward to this season with the transfer ban,  seeing what our youngsters could do and watching them develop. I'm pretty sure I said so much on here. We've won everything under Roman and spending a year or two with Frank as manager and playing the kids, maybe with some success would have been amazing and I would have happily seen that continue. 

Things have changed though, we now look like serious players again in the transfer market, maybe the most serious, maybe the only serious ones.  We are going to have to be extremely ruthless if we want to suddenly get back to the top and no one, including the manager is safe.

The ruthless way to look at Tammy is that he had a good start, scored 10 goals in 12 games but since then he has scored 4 in 24 and only 2 this calendar year.  Let's be honest, that's pretty rubbish.

Then you look at who he has scored against, the teams I mentioned earlier and you could make an argument, if one was to be ruthless, that although 14 goals in in 32 games seems ok when you break it down it's not great especially when you add in the fact that he has only scored in 9 of the 32 games he has played in. 

I ask myself the question, which top 10 club would he go to and be first choice? The obvious ones are Burnley and Sheffield United, maybe Wolves but that's a stretch and that's it. Were no longer looking to compete with those clubs for a top 6 finish like at the start of this season, we look like we want to compete with the absolute best and going forward we need to look at every single player and make some very difficult decisions. 

Not disagreeing with your assesment going forward, and all of our young players are going to have to step up next season, even Mount, but I think to adjudicate this season as "ok" is extremely harsh. Had his goals been more evenly spread, or been top heavy in the second half of the season, then I don't think this would be even be a conversation. 

the appearances stat is also slightly misleading - a lot of 10 minute cameos in that number, which is why I used minutes. 

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2 hours ago, Martin1905 said:

I get what your saying and I suppose there is different ways of looking at things.

I think Tammy has done Ok, like I said before maybe you could make an argument that he's done much better than just Ok. I was one that was looking forward to this season with the transfer ban,  seeing what our youngsters could do and watching them develop. I'm pretty sure I said so much on here. We've won everything under Roman and spending a year or two with Frank as manager and playing the kids, maybe with some success would have been amazing and I would have happily seen that continue. 

Things have changed though, we now look like serious players again in the transfer market, maybe the most serious, maybe the only serious ones.  We are going to have to be extremely ruthless if we want to suddenly get back to the top and no one, including the manager is safe.

The ruthless way to look at Tammy is that he had a good start, scored 10 goals in 12 games but since then he has scored 4 in 24 and only 2 this calendar year.  Let's be honest, that's pretty rubbish.

Then you look at who he has scored against, the teams I mentioned earlier and you could make an argument, if one was to be ruthless, that although 14 goals in in 32 games seems ok when you break it down it's not great especially when you add in the fact that he has only scored in 9 of the 32 games he has played in. 

I ask myself the question, which top 10 club would he go to and be first choice? The obvious ones are Burnley and Sheffield United, maybe Wolves but that's a stretch and that's it. Were no longer looking to compete with those clubs for a top 6 finish like at the start of this season, we look like we want to compete with the absolute best and going forward we need to look at every single player and make some very difficult decisions. 

Tammy future will more than likely be decided next summer. for the coming season he is an asset with game time and goals in the PL. Wener is an unknown and nobody knows how he will react to the PL, realistically Giroud cannot play twice a week even though he is having an indian summer post lock-down, Pulasic seem injury prone which and is very much still work in progress.

To me it will be more of an interest to see how Frank handles the conundrum, as you said with the investment made by the club I would expect they are looking for a return of wining at least 6 - 10 additional PL games next season.  

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3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Had his goals been more evenly spread, or been top heavy in the second half of the season, then I don't think this would be even be a conversation. 

Yes - but to be honest he is young, especially for a CF, so we should be highlighting the good performances and down playing the bad ones.  That doesn't get reversed till later in his career.

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GURJ SS   
19 hours ago, Rob B said:

Giroud has been on fire since the turn of the year, and he quite rightly deserves his place in the team right now...

But, let’s not forget what Tammy did for us pre-Christmas where he went and got like 10 goals in about a 2 month period - not too dissimilar to Giroud of late.  I’ve just looked it up and he got 2 at Norwich, 2 at Sheff Utd and a hat trick against Wolves within 3 consecutive games. 

I think for his first full season with us playing top level football, 16 goals and 6 assists is a more than decent return for Tammy - particularly when you factor in that he doesn’t start every game.  

I've never doubted his goal scoring or his football, it's the side to his game where he isn't able to manage a game when we're in the lead, defending starts from the front and at times when your own team is in possession. Maybe his loan at Villa played to a disadvantage, because they had a tendancy to go forward and never manage a game; he'll need to develop that side of his game regardless of how many goals he scored.

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GURJ SS   
10 hours ago, paulw66 said:

And who were we supposed to bring in? Morata? Higuain? They were the two options.

I really don't get it. He has scored 14 goals, one every 156 minutes. If he had been on penalties, he'd be competing for the golden boot.

I agree in the first half of the season Giroud should have played more, certainly ahead of Bats, but Tammy's contribution has won us a lot of points. He certainly has got more goals than I thought he would. He will only get better after this steep learning curve. 

 

I'm not questioning his goal scoring ability, and it isn't an attack on him. In games where he has played the opposition has also got back in the game and we've conceded late on, yes our defence has a lot to answer but when your striker keeps giving the ball away and can't pick the right pass then it only makes their job more difficult. All I'm saying is there's a part of his game that even scoring double the goals won't make better, he almost has an Arsenal mentality, again this isn't an attack. If he doesn't improve in game management then at some point he'll lose the trust of the manager to come on as a sub when we're winning, and when that happens to a player competing at the top level they tend to drop off; his competition is Werner next season and he needs to learn quickly.

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