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JaneB

Chelsea 0 Liverpool 2

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A few points:

- We lost this game because we did not have any pure wingers on the field. That is where you win against Liverpool. Without that, we were always at a huge disadvantage. I feel very confident we would have gotten a much better performance if Hakim and Pulisic where on the field. 

- I thought our shape was pretty good this time, and much better than against Brighton. However, I am very worried about Lampard's vision for this team. What is his end goal here? I would love to know.

- Haverts has to play deeper and more centrally! He has great vision in small spaces, and a very very good first touch pass. How is this not utilized more? He should play like our good old coach used to play. Instead I am seeing him played as a hybrid winger. Painful.

- Playing from the back with no out and out wingers? Why? Playing the ball short at the back is a HIGH risk game that should be balanced with a potential HIGH reward. When we dont have enough variety up front, the reward has drastically reduced. Because once you overcome the high risk the ball ends up at someones feet (Alonso, Jorginho, Haverts) who is still not able to hurt Liverpool sufficiently because they are too isolated, or have few options upfront. Werner alone is not enough to justify such a high risk game at the back.

- I do not care how many howlers Rudiger has. He is clearly the best and most talented CB we have, and needs to play. Maybe our current paring is good in most games, but Rudiger at least has the potential to be great. I do not believe we can win the league with AC and Zouma as our pairing. I do believe we can win the league with Rudger as our CB. Controversial I am sure, but Rudiger has much more to his game, and the risk is worth it as it stands. 

Edited by Ibn Battuta

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Rob B   
1 minute ago, Ibn Battuta said:

- I do not care how many howlers Rudiger has. He is clearly the best and most talented CB we have, and needs to play. Maybe our current paring is good in most games, but Rudiger at least has the potential to be great. I do not believe we can win the league with AC and Zouma as our pairing. I do believe we can win the league with Rudger as our CB. Controversial I am sure, but Rudiger has much more to his game, and the risk is worth it as it stands. 

Agree with all of your post apart from this bit.  Rudiger is our worst CB, or at best somewhere at the bottom along with Christensen.   Zouma is by far and away our best out & out defender, and I would probably have Tomori next up - who I thought looked very good yesterday, especially considering he hasn’t played a game for about 7 months. 

Hopefully our centre-backs largely consist of Silva, Zouma and Tomori this season.  

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chelboy   
38 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

After a night to get over it my initial reaction is to urge a bit of commonsense. We were up against a very good team (sorry have to pause here and vomit before carrying on) and many players were not available. That said I feel we were lucky to get away without a thumping.

 

Case in point Kante/Jorginho/ Kovacic in midfield and Mount/Werner /Havertz in attack. I'm not a manager with the requisite coaching badges but surely we would have been better served by playing a kosher striker like Abraham or Giroud, especially given the way we set up to play the game. An honest to god striker could have provided the out ball and held it up when we were breaking out from defense. Play Werner one side and CHO the other then EITHER Mount or Havertz behind. In these sorts of games I think Jorginho has no use as he isn't tough enough. I'd have played Kante and Kovacic in front of defense. The league is horses for courses, with our players you should be able to swap them around depending on the opposition.

I wonder if Frank isn't getting too close to the playing squad in Cobham, losing objectivity, and is mistaking "good trainers" for ideal players. It's all very well valuing guys that seem to rally the troops on the training pitch but if that goes out the window at the weekend when the chips are down its worthless. I'm pretty sure the only reason Jorginho was playing was because Azpilicueta was injured but if he can't make an impression in the game then its pointless having him there in the first place. Frank should know that it's one thing talking the talk but he needs players out there that produce when things get real. Giroud may not be a sexy multi million signing but he would have done a better job than the three false nines we had on the pitch yesterday.

 

Good post. It’s like he is trying to fit Havertz and Mount in even though he wanted to play 3 DM’s. I think Frank does have a problem with choice of players and  training plays a big part which I don’t really like in a way. For example if Tomori can come in and drop a performance like that after 7 months absence why didn’t he get more chances? We watched Rüdiger and Christensen take turns in giving us awful displays while Tomori never got a chance since Feb. I get it’s still very early and we badly needed a pre season with basically buying 6 or 7 players into our starting 11. I have said he is still experimenting which is clear but when everyone is fit after the int break he needs to settle into a system where players are in their best positions. 

Mount may be training better than CHO but would he play RW better than him? I know people say Mount tracks back better but what did Mount offer going forward. He isn’t going to run in behind or take on his man and he isn’t a natural wide man. Just like Havertz isn’t a natural wide man or false 9. In a system where you play 3 Dms, Havertz and Mount are going to have to sit on the bench. This was a bit like the Brighton game where we had 5 midfielders and one runner. It didn’t make sense in the final third which is why we looked so poor in that department in both games. Defensively he has set us up much better these first two games especially compared to last season. Now he needs to work on midfield and final third. 

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Holymoly   
32 minutes ago, bert19 said:

That sort of loyalty to a clearly underperforming player or players tends to lead to inevitable outcomes for managers. I'm a bit concerned by it if I'm honest. 

Even worse is that misplaced loyalty may also have a detrimental effect on squad morale.

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letting an away team have 60% of possession (pre AC red Card) and hoping to hit them on the counter is tactics normally employed by teams in the bottom half of the table.

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Holymoly   
2 minutes ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

letting an away team have 60% of possession (pre AC red Card) and hoping to hit them on the counter is tactics normally employed by teams in the bottom half of the table.

Worked for Palace. Oh wait, they have pace up front.

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chelboy   
14 minutes ago, Ibn Battuta said:

 

- I do not care how many howlers Rudiger has. He is clearly the best and most talented CB we have, and needs to play. Maybe our current paring is good in most games, but Rudiger at least has the potential to be great. I do not believe we can win the league with AC and Zouma as our pairing. I do believe we can win the league with Rudger as our CB. Controversial I am sure, but Rudiger has much more to his game, and the risk is worth it as it stands. 

A bit odd to say you don’t care how many howlers he has had then afterwards claim he is our best CB. You could basically say the same thing for Christensen. Howlers tend to happen because of poor moments from the player. They are not random things that fall from the sky. The better you are as a defender the less howlers you will have. 

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2 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

Worked for Palace. Oh wait, they have pace up front.

then ManUre are on the same level as us. Oh wait a minute, they also have an explayer as a coach - Bizarre coincidence? 

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A lot of really good points being made here , my worry is , how come we can see them and Lamps can't ?

When you consider how much Leeds put Liverpool under pressure with a much weaker (on paper) side , I cannot help that we approached this game in a much too cautious manner.

My issue is , what must Giroud and Tammy and Barkley and Rudiger be thinking , deemed not good enough to start and having to watch a very poor performance from their replacements ?

The midfield three is an absolute nonsense , if you must have a three , have Kante to chase things down , Kova or Jorgi to tidy up and Havertz to play as an 8 , getting forward and springing attacks ,yesterday the three of them were a joke , Havertz must be heart broken he's had two games now , played in a position where he's been negated from the start .

God knows what Werner must think ? I'm guessing he thinks Lampard thinks he's Hazard and can win games on his own and do everything 

Many , many posters on here have questioned the inclusion of both Christensen and Kepa and yet they still keep being picked and still don't improve an iota. 

I've watched a lot of football on TV and we are easily one of the worst sides to watch , the most incoherent and unimpressive and I include teams who are getting whooped in that too .

It's a worry .

 

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1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

After a night to get over it my initial reaction is to urge a bit of commonsense. We were up against a very good team (sorry have to pause here and vomit before carrying on) and many players were not available. That said I feel we were lucky to get away without a thumping.......

....

I wonder if Frank isn't getting too close to the playing squad in Cobham, losing objectivity, and is mistaking "good trainers" for ideal players. It's all very well valuing guys that seem to rally the troops on the training pitch but if that goes out the window at the weekend when the chips are down its worthless. ........

....

Before the game I did say we would lose and be the butt end of some refereeing decisions so I'm not that surprised. OK the sending off was the correct decision and we did miss a penalty but it's a similar scenario. What irks me however is that I don't think we had the right players on the pitch to play the way we were set up for.

51 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

I know we have key players missing but Frank really needs to decide on a formation and a way to play, with his best players on the pitch playing in their best positions. 

He chopped and changed almost every other game last season and I can't see how it helps anybody. 

His biggest problem is he is still learning, he doesn't even know if the way he wants to play will be successful. We need to get back to basics, get them right and go from there. It's like we play a different system every other week.

After the restart it appeared he wanted to play Kante as a DM with two number 8's, playing Kante there is not something I agree with but that's not the point, we must have spent weeks training this way only for it to be completely abandoned. We also switched between 5 at the back and 4 far too much last season, again the time spent on the training ground to implement one system one week then to change it the following week doesnt make sense.

The most important thing for us right now is to get a settled formation, a fairly settled first 11 and work on a system of play. It is far easier to change a player or two and try to play the same way rather than changing the whole system each week.

2 of Kovacic, Jorgino and Kante need to play. It's pretty much Kante plus one. Then he needs to decide if we play an 8 or 10 and either way that has to be Mount or Havertz. After that the front 3 is pretty straight forward and can be rotated as much as necessary. 

 

 

2 great posts.  This game is not the issue.  But some clearer management would be nice.
At least we did have one free kick where the players knew where the cross was going to be - but that needs to be every game.

11 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

Even worse is that misplaced loyalty may also have a detrimental effect on squad morale.

On the one hand, all that money coming this summer must have made motivating the players last year very hard.  But I don't think Frank has done himself any favours.
RLC and Barkley have both been used already, yet I can't see them having any role in the squad this year (except when Ziyech, and Pulisic are both out.  Rudiger 18/19 was a far far better defender than anyone else we have (including I suspect Thiago 20/21) and Kepa even 19/20 far better than Cabballero, but Frank seems to prefer substandard players who train well to getting best out of the best ones.

It is development squad training at its finest.  Time for the coaches to advance.

31 minutes ago, Ibn Battuta said:

- I do not care how many howlers Rudiger has. He is clearly the best and most talented CB we have, and needs to play. Maybe our current paring is good in most games, but Rudiger at least has the potential to be great. I do not believe we can win the league with AC and Zouma as our pairing. I do believe we can win the league with Rudger as our CB. Controversial I am sure, but Rudiger has much more to his game, and the risk is worth it as it stands. 

Quite.  The question is why so many of the best players from 18/19 became so much poorer in 19/20.  And how much any success in 19/20 was due to new players brought into the team (Abraham, Mount, James, Zouma, Pulisic).

50 minutes ago, Ham said:

It's not really. The reason he actually falls on Mane is because his foot is knocked aside in mid air by Mane taking one step left to initiate contact. It's very subtle. 

And steps across in front of Christensen.
Pictures of Christensen "pulling back" Mane are all over the press today but very clearly Christensen's hands are not touching him.  The only thing pulling back Mane is Christensen's armpit suction - because Mane has managed to get underneath him.

 

 

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