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JaneB

Chelsea 0 Liverpool 2

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If you watch where the ball is heading it is veering towards Christiansen and away from Mane, and to Kepa's right hence, why Mane moves his foot to the left.  The camera angle makes it look like Mane could've got the ball with his right foot but, that's not the case.  The more I watch it the more I think he drew the foul because he knew it was running away from him.  I don't think he'd have got to the ball first.

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Ham   
1 hour ago, Erland Johnson said:

I've just seen a btter replay of the incident.  Mane does step across as he knew Christiansen was there.  Not sure it is a foul or not by Mane, either way it is clever play from him. Christian had his arms in a holding off position and then the trip on Mane's planted leg inevitably made it look bad.

Regarding whether Kepa should get there first - I think he should.  My Mrs said yeah he should but it's Kepa so he probably wouldn't (she's a Saints fan), I gave her stick earlier in the day for their capitulation to Spurs..  It did ruin a game that was going to be very interesting in the second half.

Agreed 100%. Everybody was far too quick to accept liability on behalf of AC. His reaction was very clear.  He thought he'd had his foot taken away, causing him to fall on Mane.  With this in mind the ref should have looked at the feet and decided that his initial yellow was more suitable.  

He certainly shouldn't have overturned his first decision.  He rushed it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ham said:

Agreed 100%. Everybody was far too quick to accept liability on behalf of AC. His reaction was very clear.  He thought he'd had his foot taken away, causing him to fall on Mane.  With this in mind the ref should have looked at the feet and decided that his initial yellow was more suitable.  

He certainly shouldn't have overturned his first decision.  He rushed it. 

 

An attacking player getting his body in between the defender and the ball, taking the hit and going down is so standard that there's no way we could ever expect it to not be given as a foul. The only argument I think we should have is that Kepa was getting to the ball first so it wasn't denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, hence a yellow card and free kick would have been sufficient. From what they showed on TV is seemed that the referee was only looking at the foul itself, not the whole sequence and wide shot showing the ball being much closer to Kepa than Mane. Yet another way in which the VARs/technical operators can manipulate decisions - only show the ref the part you want him to see.

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6 minutes ago, chiswickblue said:

An attacking player getting his body in between the defender and the ball, taking the hit and going down is so standard that there's no way we could ever expect it to not be given as a foul. The only argument I think we should have is that Kepa was getting to the ball first so it wasn't denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, hence a yellow card and free kick would have been sufficient. From what they showed on TV is seemed that the referee was only looking at the foul itself, not the whole sequence and wide shot showing the ball being much closer to Kepa than Mane. Yet another way in which the VARs/technical operators can manipulate decisions - only show the ref the part you want him to see.

Quite. Initially I thought it was a red. Now I’m adamant it’s not a red and yet another questionable VAR decision going their way. Over the last two seasons we’ve had VAR decisions against Liverpool that has cost us two losses. 

 

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I have to say my disdain for Christensen probably clouded my judgement as it did look a red card offence at the time , particularly the side angle where they collide with the apparent force of a wrecking ball .

However , not for the first time , the forum has changed my mind .

Yellow card . 

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chara   
6 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I have to say my disdain for Christensen probably clouded my judgement as it did look a red card offence at the time , particularly the side angle where they collide with the apparent force of a wrecking ball .

However , not for the first time , the forum has changed my mind .

Yellow card . 

Not sure even that Mark....the side shot shows AC's leg being fouled...no where for him to go....var replays look nailed on red/yellow card but as ever real analysis..not possible it seems at the time....show a different picture...only an appeal would get any joy from Kepa first argument....ref's decision was already made before any review so no choice but to suck it up on the day...however I remember at least one SFL red being rescinded (West Ham?) because what was deemed simulation was shown to be a definite clip on his ankle.....swings and roundabouts they say...but more like a one way slide for us usually!

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2 minutes ago, chara said:

.var replays look nailed on red/yellow card but as ever real analysis..not possible it seems at the time....

I'm not sure I agree.  Every VAR view I saw failed to show either

  • The ref's view from behind which would have clearly shown if Christensen ran into Mane or if Mane side-stepped across, and also whether Mane consistently was going for the ball
  • OR the lino's point of view which would have determined whether Kante or Mane was getting there first (I still haven't seen a clear view of that)

In effect the VAR views were classic "confirm your prejudice" views.  It was when I first heard "look you can see Christensen pulling him back" for Carragher or Neville that I knew they had got it wrong - it is very very clear that Christensen does everything he can with his arms and hands to avoid pulling Mane back.

 

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Ham   
44 minutes ago, chiswickblue said:

An attacking player getting his body in between the defender and the ball, taking the hit and going down is so standard that there's no way we could ever expect it to not be given as a foul. The only argument I think we should have is that Kepa was getting to the ball first so it wasn't denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, hence a yellow card and free kick would have been sufficient. From what they showed on TV is seemed that the referee was only looking at the foul itself, not the whole sequence and wide shot showing the ball being much closer to Kepa than Mane. Yet another way in which the VARs/technical operators can manipulate decisions - only show the ref the part you want him to see.

Oh I get that getting between the defender and the ball and initiating the foul is standard. My point was that the first contact was Mane's foot on AC's foot, causing him to fall over.  

 

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Ham   
7 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

I'm not sure I agree.  Every VAR view I saw failed to show either

  • The ref's view from behind which would have clearly shown if Christensen ran into Mane or if Mane side-stepped across, and also whether Mane consistently was going for the ball
  • OR the lino's point of view which would have determined whether Kante or Mane was getting there first (I still haven't seen a clear view of that)

In effect the VAR views were classic "confirm your prejudice" views.  It was when I first heard "look you can see Christensen pulling him back" for Carragher or Neville that I knew they had got it wrong - it is very very clear that Christensen does everything he can with his arms and hands to avoid pulling Mane back.

 

I said previously on here that had the roles been reversed, VAR may well have looked at it only to confirm that Allison was definitely going to get there first, therefore no red for Dipper defender.  

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Just now, Ham said:

I said previously on here that had the roles been reversed, VAR may well have looked at it only to confirm that Allison was definitely going to get there first, therefore no red for Dipper defender.  

You and I called it right (or at least dubious) early on.

55 minutes ago, chiswickblue said:

An attacking player getting his body in between the defender and the ball, taking the hit and going down is so standard that there's no way we could ever expect it to not be given as a foul. The only argument I think we should have is that Kepa was getting to the ball first so it wasn't denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, hence a yellow card and free kick would have been sufficient. From what they showed on TV is seemed that the referee was only looking at the foul itself, not the whole sequence and wide shot showing the ball being much closer to Kepa than Mane. Yet another way in which the VARs/technical operators can manipulate decisions - only show the ref the part you want him to see.

yes and no.  First Mane did not get between Christensen and ball, he got himself into AC's chest. Secondly  the onus is on the defender to avoid collision, but it is only a foul if he fails to do something possible.  And third (and pictures aren't clear on this) a curving run to cut off the defender while still approaching the ball  is fine.  A right angled jump that takes Mane away from the ball is not.

On the VAR points absolutely.  Giving a foul was a reasonable (not obviously wrong) decision and did not require review.  Changing to a Red by the same token was a reasonable decision not requiring a review.  But to review the colour by looking at the offence was plain daft.

I really wish Chelsea would drop their policy of never complaining about decisions.  SFL should have been furious post match.  He let Christensen down and then pointed a finger at other individuals too.  It wasn't a bad performance given the opponents, and the players should come out of this angry with the result, not doubting their own abilities.

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