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JaneB

West Bromwich Albion 3 Chelsea 3

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Faramir   
56 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

I’d agree that there are worrying signs. But we must also remember that Lampard had had some mess to clean up after Conte and Sarri. We haven’t made a single successful purchase that really lifted the squad in those years outside of Kante (before this summer). Instead Frank has had to rely on academy players that naturally would struggle with consistency while also being guilty of some naivety. 

That senior players like Rudiger and Jorginho is getting worse is just as likely to be because they don’t suit a modern game. Pace, intensity and flawless positioning isn’t their strengths exactly. But ther senior players have not gotten worse. Azpi has been as reliable as ever. Willian kept the same form (even a slight improvement) compared to earlier seasons and Giroud has looked a lot better under Frank than Sarri. Alonso always had defensive weakness. Frank hasn’t been prepared to utilise a formation to cover them up (like Conte did). 

End of this season is when we can judge Frank in a fair manner. It’s been one hell of a rebuilding job he’s been responsible for and at last it feels like we are building a squad that has the ability to play a fast-paced attacking style with a high press. We still have Ziyech, Chilwell and Silva to be included and long-term there is a lot to be positive about. 

Excellent post. Thanks Ghost!

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Faramir   
41 minutes ago, Ham said:

I don't mean to sound negative but we're wearing the palace kit today 😔

Hey, maybe that's a good thing. Excluding goal difference they are joint top of the league! :happy:

By the way, of the five teams at the top, four of them will be taking points off of each other and Leicester are playing Man City. (Palace vs. Everton / Liverpool vs. Arsenal)

 

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Faramir   

Team selection.

Too early for Mendy. I hope we go with Caballero and Mendy gets a start against Spurs.

                  Caballero

James  Zouma  Silva  Azpilicueta

              Kante  Kovacic

Werner    Harvetz     Mount

                 Abraham

 

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Faramir   

United beat Brighton 3-2... awarded the winning penalty after the ref blew the whistle for full time.

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JaneB   
2 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

Well it’s not as easy as that. Kante and Hazard are two players out of a squad of 25. Their scores doesn’t impact the average nearly as much as you make it out. Plus, you would have to compare Rudiger with other players in his position. Of the defenders that are still here over that comparative period Rudiger is on par with Christensen. That doesn’t rhyme very well with your and Martins view that almost Chelsea fans think that Rudiger is a top class defender and clearly our best CB. Quite the contrary actually which was my initial point that I made in my reply to Martin. 

The numbers simply doesn’t add any support to that theory. What it does do, is to support the widely accepted notion that his best season was his first. But they also support my view that his performances have deteriorated over time and that he is now at an unacceptable performance level. Personally I think that Rudiger was made to look like a lot better than he is by figuring in a back five with two defensive midfielders as protection for most of his first season here. I don’t claim that to be a fact, merely my opinion. But there are no numbers that support your and Martins views that Chelsea fans in general has held Rudiger as a top CB. 

My apologies Jane. I don’t want my posts to make your life anymore difficult or that members would leave because of me. I will think about how I engage with Droy and others. 

I was very impressed with Chilwells debut and think that my initial reactions to his signing may have been off the mark. I think he will be our obvious LB1 as soon as he is fit to play 90 mins. Azpi is our FB3, covering for both James and Chilwell imo. 

 

Thanks, appreciated :-)

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46 minutes ago, Faramir said:

United beat Brighton 3-2... awarded the winning penalty after the ref blew the whistle for full time.

Luckiest side around at the moment, Brighton hit the woodwork 5 times and lose to that at the end!!

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1 hour ago, Martin1905 said:

Would need to see all the other players rating for that to really hold any weight and even then its just people voting, who knows if they are even Chelsea fans or indeed voting properly, to make any real judgement. I can only speak about the people I talk to, the ones I see regularly at matches and all I can say is the vast majority thought Rudiger was quality and there was absolutely zero talk of him not being good enough or indeed being sold.

Now if you dont agree that's fine but your argument is that his performances have declined. They have. My argument is that it is partly down to his injury and partly down to the coaching/management. He is not the only player whos performances  have declined since Frank came in. I would add Kepa, Jorginho, Azpilicueta, Alonso and Kante to the list. I'd also say Christensen but you could argue he wasnt great in the first place but I would say he was better in previous seasons, before Frank.

If you look at Frank and the coaching set up and then look at the decline in our defensive players, then the way we defend as a team, I think it is fair to say questions should be asked of the tactics and training that is going on. We look utterly clueless as a defensive unit. Some of our key defensive players look utterly clueless. Our keeper looks even worse. This was not the case under Conte or Sarri. 

We can debate all day long about the level of certain players pre Frank but the fact is, and it appears you are agreeing with me, that some of them have gone backwards. Even if you dont think they were at the level I do previously we seem to agree that they have regressed. Its not just one or two either, its half the starting 11.

 

You can, he’s on par with Christensen. What other measurement do you need to gauge their opinion? 

We ain’t got no history is a proper Chelsea site with proper Chelsea fans. I gauge it’s the online gathering point for most of our fans in the States and they are indeed watching the games. I don’t think they’d bother to have a 6 season track record of end of season rating unless they were serious. 

My point was just a reply to your comment that anyone who didn’t rate Rudiger in his first season was just plain wrong (or words to that effect). I’m not arguing whether his best season was his first, I’m arguing it wasn’t as good as some would like to remember. Either case, his standards now are disastrous and he has no business walking around thinking he should be an automatic starter. If the noises are correct and that is what he is doing, I don’t blame the club to weed him out ASAP. That’s not how a senior pro should behave in a young squad. 

As for the rest of your post....

2 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

I’d agree that there are worrying signs. But we must also remember that Lampard had had some mess to clean up after Conte and Sarri. We haven’t made a single successful purchase that really lifted the squad in those years outside of Kante (before this summer). Instead Frank has had to rely on academy players that naturally would struggle with consistency while also being guilty of some naivety. 

That senior players like Rudiger and Jorginho is getting worse is just as likely to be because they don’t suit a modern game. Pace, intensity and flawless positioning isn’t their strengths exactly. But ther senior players have not gotten worse. Azpi has been as reliable as ever. Willian kept the same form (even a slight improvement) compared to earlier seasons and Giroud has looked a lot better under Frank than Sarri. Alonso always had defensive weakness. Frank hasn’t been prepared to utilise a formation to cover them up (like Conte did). 

End of this season is when we can judge Frank in a fair manner. It’s been one hell of a rebuilding job he’s been responsible for and at last it feels like we are building a squad that has the ability to play a fast-paced attacking style with a high press. We still have Ziyech, Chilwell and Silva to be included and long-term there is a lot to be positive about. 

... I quoted myself from a different reply. I think it fits well as a respons to the second half of your post. Some players have regressed (Kepa, Jorginho, Rudiger). Some improved (Zouma, Willian, Giroud). Kante is unfair as an example as he had so many injuries. Azpilicueta I don’t agree regressed. I actually think he was good last season and no worse than under Sarri. 

But Rudiger regressed before Lampard and Kepa was never any good. What us happened is that halfway through his first season teams had figured out his weaknesses and targeted them hard. That continued last season and the genie was out. I don’t see any way back for him unless he rectifies his slow reaction, bad goalkeeper technique and grows a few inches taller. 

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9 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

But Rudiger regressed before Lampard and Kepa was never any good.

Is precisely the crux of the argument.  Quite untrue IMO.

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This freaking handball law is just outrageous, another one awarded by VAR which was obviously impossible to get his hand out the way. 

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18 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

You can, he’s on par with Christensen. What other measurement do you need to gauge their opinion? 

We ain’t got no history is a proper Chelsea site with proper Chelsea fans. I gauge it’s the online gathering point for most of our fans in the States and they are indeed watching the games. I don’t think they’d bother to have a 6 season track record of end of season rating unless they were serious. 

My point was just a reply to your comment that anyone who didn’t rate Rudiger in his first season was just plain wrong (or words to that effect). I’m not arguing whether his best season was his first, I’m arguing it wasn’t as good as some would like to remember. Either case, his standards now are disastrous and he has no business walking around thinking he should be an automatic starter. If the noises are correct and that is what he is doing, I don’t blame the club to weed him out ASAP. That’s not how a senior pro should behave in a young squad. 

So,  I should take a load of Americans watching games on TV above those I know that go to pretty much every single home and away game and watch him in the flesh. Ok.

Gonna leave it there mate, this probably isn't the place and will are so far apart on our views there is absolutely no point debating it, also I dont want to be upsetting Jane.

 

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