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JaneB

West Bromwich Albion 3 Chelsea 3

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17 hours ago, Sciatika said:

Have a look at the squad.

http://www.thechels.info/wiki/First_team_squad

Lots of decent players with backups in every position, a manager and assistant manager we all love. We have the best negotiator in Marina and the best owner in the league. What's not to love?

The government?

sorry. That's specially for you Sci..

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3 hours ago, Blue Rod said:

I'm with you, Martin. People may say I'm negative, but I think the collective and sudden decline in the performance of nearly every senior and even younger player is simply scary.

I actually think that Rudiger's decline is no worse than that of, say Jorginho, who for all his defensive weaknesses, got every pundit salivating over his passing ability under Sarri, or Alonso, who barely looks like a Championship FB these days, never mind a PL winner, or Emerson who no longer looks like a footballer at all. 

The closer you are to the final moment of a goal being scored, the more people remember your contributions, your mistakes magnified. We seemed to forget opponents slicing through our midfield and flanks at will before Rudiger's mistakes last season. It's as if Rudiger was solely responsible for pressing upfield, defending the centre of midfield,  the flanks. FB position, as well as being a centre half. 

If we are going to do well this season, and I really hope we will, the deciding factor would be Lampard getting the entire squad playing well, a system of play where every player understands and masters their roles, getting the older players on his side,  the new signings gelling with the established ones, and a healthy atmosphere of competition for spots (rather than try to fit two square pegs in a round hole)

We now have enough players to play some decent and consistent football. Lets direct our focus where it matters. Because we can debate Rudiger all day and compare him to Christensen or even Bogarde, but the person who most needs evidence and statistics to back up his qualifications for the job, is not Rudiger the defender; it is Frank Lampard the PL manager. 

Yes, very reasonable sentiments there I think Rod.

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1 hour ago, JaneB said:

@Droy was my hero @The_Ghost

You both contribute a lot to the forum but please if you want to score points off each other can you do it in private.

We all support the same team and we don't need all this 'attitude' towards one another.  It's possible to disagree and have a healthy debate without resorting to name calling.

This is just the sort of thing that is putting some members off the forum and we don't want to keep losing good people.  A few 'older' members seem to have come back in too and I don't want to lose them again.

It's not just you two obviously so this is a general message to everyone.

And a special note to @Droy was my hero .......just because Michael is no longer around (more of which at the end of the month) doesn't mean you can get away with what you like.  I'm not a soft touch and I'm not going to let a few spoil it for the majority on here.

Thank you gents.

I say! Are you referring to me as an “older member” chief? I mean...well I mean Really!!

Yours, jolly well peeved, Tunbridge Wells.

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JaneB   
21 minutes ago, PeteRobbo said:

I say! Are you referring to me as an “older member” chief? I mean...well I mean Really!!

Yours, jolly well peeved, Tunbridge Wells.

I should have said “long standing” but if the cap fits and all that 🤔

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4 hours ago, Blue Rod said:

I'm with you, Martin. People may say I'm negative, but I think the collective and sudden decline in the performance of nearly every senior and even younger player is simply scary.

I actually think that Rudiger's decline is no worse than that of, say Jorginho, who for all his defensive weaknesses, got every pundit salivating over his passing ability under Sarri, or Alonso, who barely looks like a Championship FB these days, never mind a PL winner, or Emerson who no longer looks like a footballer at all. 

The closer you are to the final moment of a goal being scored, the more people remember your contributions, your mistakes magnified. We seemed to forget opponents slicing through our midfield and flanks at will before Rudiger's mistakes last season. It's as if Rudiger was solely responsible for pressing upfield, defending the centre of midfield,  the flanks. FB position, as well as being a centre half. 

If we are going to do well this season, and I really hope we will, the deciding factor would be Lampard getting the entire squad playing well, a system of play where every player understands and masters their roles, getting the older players on his side,  the new signings gelling with the established ones, and a healthy atmosphere of competition for spots (rather than try to fit two square pegs in a round hole)

We now have enough players to play some decent and consistent football. Lets direct our focus where it matters. Because we can debate Rudiger all day and compare him to Christensen or even Bogarde, but the person who most needs evidence and statistics to back up his qualifications for the job, is not Rudiger the defender; it is Frank Lampard the PL manager. 

You are very negative and would do well do have a more optimistic outlook. But this is a very sensible post and it really touches on what I think a lot of us are feeling, but perhaps not able to express. 

3 points from 2 games after having played the champions is fine. However, the decline in key players who should shown improvement at this stage of their career (Kante, Rudiger), the lack of tactical shape and disciplined mentality, the tactical naivety/gamble from management, and finally some truly horrendous swing in performances, is worrying.

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2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

And they showed Rudiger better than average in 2 seasons where Kante and hazard were brilliant.  Thank you.

Well it’s not as easy as that. Kante and Hazard are two players out of a squad of 25. Their scores doesn’t impact the average nearly as much as you make it out. Plus, you would have to compare Rudiger with other players in his position. Of the defenders that are still here over that comparative period Rudiger is on par with Christensen. That doesn’t rhyme very well with your and Martins view that almost Chelsea fans think that Rudiger is a top class defender and clearly our best CB. Quite the contrary actually which was my initial point that I made in my reply to Martin. 

The numbers simply doesn’t add any support to that theory. What it does do, is to support the widely accepted notion that his best season was his first. But they also support my view that his performances have deteriorated over time and that he is now at an unacceptable performance level. Personally I think that Rudiger was made to look like a lot better than he is by figuring in a back five with two defensive midfielders as protection for most of his first season here. I don’t claim that to be a fact, merely my opinion. But there are no numbers that support your and Martins views that Chelsea fans in general has held Rudiger as a top CB. 

1 hour ago, JaneB said:

@Droy was my hero @The_Ghost

You both contribute a lot to the forum but please if you want to score points off each other can you do it in private.

We all support the same team and we don't need all this 'attitude' towards one another.  It's possible to disagree and have a healthy debate without resorting to name calling.

This is just the sort of thing that is putting some members off the forum and we don't want to keep losing good people.  A few 'older' members seem to have come back in too and I don't want to lose them again.

It's not just you two obviously so this is a general message to everyone.

And a special note to @Droy was my hero .......just because Michael is no longer around (more of which at the end of the month) doesn't mean you can get away with what you like.  I'm not a soft touch and I'm not going to let a few spoil it for the majority on here.

Thank you gents.

My apologies Jane. I don’t want my posts to make your life anymore difficult or that members would leave because of me. I will think about how I engage with Droy and others. 

38 minutes ago, PeteRobbo said:

Looks like a good selection Ghost, although why Azpi over Chilwell?

I was very impressed with Chilwells debut and think that my initial reactions to his signing may have been off the mark. I think he will be our obvious LB1 as soon as he is fit to play 90 mins. Azpi is our FB3, covering for both James and Chilwell imo. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ibn Battuta said:

You are very negative and would do well do have a more optimistic outlook. But this is a very sensible post and it really touches on what I think a lot of us are feeling, but perhaps not able to express. 

3 points from 2 games after having played the champions is fine. However, the decline in key players who should shown improvement at this stage of their career (Kante, Rudiger), the lack of tactical shape and disciplined mentality, the tactical naivety/gamble from management, and finally some truly horrendous swing in performances, is worrying.

I’d agree that there are worrying signs. But we must also remember that Lampard had had some mess to clean up after Conte and Sarri. We haven’t made a single successful purchase that really lifted the squad in those years outside of Kante (before this summer). Instead Frank has had to rely on academy players that naturally would struggle with consistency while also being guilty of some naivety. 

That senior players like Rudiger and Jorginho is getting worse is just as likely to be because they don’t suit a modern game. Pace, intensity and flawless positioning isn’t their strengths exactly. But ther senior players have not gotten worse. Azpi has been as reliable as ever. Willian kept the same form (even a slight improvement) compared to earlier seasons and Giroud has looked a lot better under Frank than Sarri. Alonso always had defensive weakness. Frank hasn’t been prepared to utilise a formation to cover them up (like Conte did). 

End of this season is when we can judge Frank in a fair manner. It’s been one hell of a rebuilding job he’s been responsible for and at last it feels like we are building a squad that has the ability to play a fast-paced attacking style with a high press. We still have Ziyech, Chilwell and Silva to be included and long-term there is a lot to be positive about. 

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Ham   

I don't mean to sound negative but we're wearing the palace kit today 😔

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15 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

I suppose one can remember what one wants to remember. We ain’t got no history has a rating for every player every season and Rudigers average has gone from 6.7 2017-18 (team average 6.5), 6.5 2018-19 (Team average 6.4) and 6.0 2019-20 (team average 6.3). 

Rudiger is basically on par with Christensen in terms of average seasonal rating for the three seasons we are talking about. To me that doesn’t seem like Chelsea fans rating Rudiger as some type of world class defender. He’s just as average as Christensen ffs. He has basically been the definition of average according to the readers and followers of we ain’t got no history. You may disagree. Fine. But don’t pretend Chelsea fans are generally agreeing with you. 

 

 

Would need to see all the other players rating for that to really hold any weight and even then its just people voting, who knows if they are even Chelsea fans or indeed voting properly, to make any real judgement. I can only speak about the people I talk to, the ones I see regularly at matches and all I can say is the vast majority thought Rudiger was quality and there was absolutely zero talk of him not being good enough or indeed being sold.

Now if you dont agree that's fine but your argument is that his performances have declined. They have. My argument is that it is partly down to his injury and partly down to the coaching/management. He is not the only player whos performances  have declined since Frank came in. I would add Kepa, Jorginho, Azpilicueta, Alonso and Kante to the list. I'd also say Christensen but you could argue he wasnt great in the first place but I would say he was better in previous seasons, before Frank.

If you look at Frank and the coaching set up and then look at the decline in our defensive players, then the way we defend as a team, I think it is fair to say questions should be asked of the tactics and training that is going on. We look utterly clueless as a defensive unit. Some of our key defensive players look utterly clueless. Our keeper looks even worse. This was not the case under Conte or Sarri. 

We can debate all day long about the level of certain players pre Frank but the fact is, and it appears you are agreeing with me, that some of them have gone backwards. Even if you dont think they were at the level I do previously we seem to agree that they have regressed. Its not just one or two either, its half the starting 11.

 

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Faramir   
2 hours ago, PeteRobbo said:

Looks like a good selection Ghost, although why Azpi over Chilwell?

Hi Pete,

Based on what Frank said in his pre-game media conference I don't think Chilwell will be starting today.

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