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JaneB

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Blue Rod   
5 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

We all know it's agents pushing their players on the club that matters. 

They then go to Frank and say we can get player X what do you think? 

Werner, Havertz and Ziyech on paper looks a no brainer. 

Sadly Werner has lost his spark covering for the fragility of Pulisic 

Havertz looks like a reanimated corpse and Ziyech must surely have just been a rumour we've seen so little of him. 

I watched quite a lot of German Bundesliga thanks to my BT contract. Never thought of Havertz as a player who can dominate a midfield, shaking off challenges (which you must have for that role in the PL unless you are a ball controller like David Silva) I was intrigued about how we were going to use him and Mount in the same team. And there is nothing wrong with buying a central striker like Werner when you already have two so long as you accept the limitation with playing them together. 

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Jasonb   
7 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

I watched quite a lot of German Bundesliga thanks to my BT contract. Never thought of Havertz as a player who can dominate a midfield, shaking off challenges (which you must have for that role in the PL unless you are a ball controller like David Silva) I was intrigued about how we were going to use him and Mount in the same team. And there is nothing wrong with buying a central striker like Werner when you already have two so long as you accept the limitation with playing them together. 

I saw Havertz playing in Germany just after we were supposedly interested in him and having watched the Youtubes of his best moments.

I was underwhelmed as coming back from injury under a new manger he was playing CF as the new manager was struggling to fit him in a 4-3-3. He looked like the level of Bamford. 

Actually Bamford has been decent this season yet I thought perhaps he was rusty and being played out of position, don't judge too early.

 

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21 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Havertz looks like a reanimated corpse 

21 and "moved to a tough league" etc.  
I have little time for those who think the likes of Werner, Chilwell, Ziyech, Silva need bedding in and receiving the benefit of some consistent coaching.
And little time for those that think all RLC needs is a few more opportunities from our manager.

But surely we can make an exception for a 21 year old new to the prem.
No problems with the idea that he should be rested but writing him off is a bit much.

(not specifically aimed at MK, just at the trend)

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3 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

21 and "moved to a tough league" etc.  
I have little time for those who think the likes of Werner, Chilwell, Ziyech, Silva need bedding in and receiving the benefit of some consistent coaching.
And little time for those that think all RLC needs is a few more opportunities from our manager.

But surely we can make an exception for a 21 year old new to the prem.
No problems with the idea that he should be rested but writing him off is a bit much.

(not specifically aimed at MK, just at the trend)

Agree with most of this. Injuries, Covid and no pre-season on top of that. There have been some moments (albeit very brief) where he has looked exceptional. I’m not expecting us to see the best of him until next season. Even then, the Euros are likely going to destroy pre season.

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8 hours ago, Jasonb said:

I saw Havertz playing in Germany just after we were supposedly interested in him and having watched the Youtubes of his best moments.

I was underwhelmed as coming back from injury under a new manger he was playing CF as the new manager was struggling to fit him in a 4-3-3. He looked like the level of Bamford. 

Actually Bamford has been decent this season yet I thought perhaps he was rusty and being played out of position, don't judge too early.

 

Never been as underwhelmed by a "potential superstar" as I have been with Kai. 

Dont even understand what his strengths or what his game is. Does not have a single World class attribute. Scratch that, does not have the basics right of ball holding and making a 5 metre pass and shielding the ball. 

I mean I can understand giving "him time" as its a "new league" and all that, but surely something as basic as passing and ball shielding can not be impacted. Dont think other potential "superstars" like mbappe would be looking like sunday league players as Kai has used. Think our scouting and FL screwed up big time.

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2 hours ago, didierforever said:

Never been as underwhelmed by a "potential superstar" as I have been with Kai. 

Dont even understand what his strengths or what his game is. Does not have a single World class attribute. Scratch that, does not have the basics right of ball holding and making a 5 metre pass and shielding the ball. 

I mean I can understand giving "him time" as its a "new league" and all that, but surely something as basic as passing and ball shielding can not be impacted. Dont think other potential "superstars" like mbappe would be looking like sunday league players as Kai has used. Think our scouting and FL screwed up big time.

You could have been describing Bakayoko in a Chelsea shirt, which is worrying, but I do understand what you're saying. Other than maybe 2 games this season, I haven't seen anything from Havertz that suggests he is a world-class or even top talent, it's not like he's showing his skill or his finishing or his reading of the game, but just being caught out by the speed or intensity of the league, but so far he just does not seem to have settled at all.

The above is harsh and I know that and as a couple of others have said, he's had no pre-season, he's moved to a new country at a young age during a global pandemic and has suffered himself from Covid, so I am willing to give him time and as I've said a few times now, I think the best thing for him is to have a decent run of games from the bench as he gets his fitness up, gets his sharpness back and can watch and understand the league better from the side, whilst slowly integrating into the team. Unfortunately, due to injuries, I think he was thrown in to quick and stayed in for too long, same to an extent as Werner.

I'd personally cut Werner some slack as well, I think the early weeks we saw the real Werner, but he's been massively overplayed, he's appeared in all our games this season (and Germany's) and the majority of the time it's been 90 mins - he just looks knackered to me in body and mind.

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Blue Rod   
6 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I'd personally cut Werner some slack as well, I think the early weeks we saw the real Werner, but he's been massively overplayed, he's appeared in all our games this season (and Germany's) and the majority of the time it's been 90 mins - he just looks knackered to me in body and mind.

I think Werner was a pretty good buy. As JFH and even German pundits have said, Werner is all goals (and not a lot more) His pace, power and physicality is suited to the PL. He just needs to be played in his favourite role.

Havertz, on the other hand, (and for the PL) is a £35m midfielder who should be competing with Mount for the same starting position. We do need a commanding presence (physically and technically) in the centre of our midfield to partner Kante. Jorginho can't do it, Mount is not that type of player.  That is where our £75m should have been spent.

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It’s always interesting the different metrics that players are measured against.

Personally, I am happy to give Havertz plenty of slack. I wouldn’t have him in the team at present, but you can see he is a top player. His touch , physical frame, technique, intelligence all points to a top player. I just don’t think he quite knows/understands  how to  influence games at present and we don’t quite know how to use him. I certainly won’t be judging him until next season. He’s had two years of top level football at his home town club and environment. This is a massive change and step for him to adapt too.

Werner on the other hand. I find it hard to defend him because he cannot even produce the basics of controlling the ball and finding a teammate. He is clearly better than what we are seeing, but I have my doubts as to how much better. He reminds me quite a bit of Michael Owen, but not as clinical. Which is a concern because the only advantages of playing Michael Owen (post first 4 years of his career) was due to his clinical finishing.

Havertz will be a long term success, but it may take 2 years. I can’t say the same about Werner.

Never has a new player frustrated me as much as Werner has. The last time a player frustrated me to this level was Salomon Kalou. I’d be chuffed if Werner had Kalou’s technical ability......which the fact I am thinking this is another massive concern! 

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Blue Rod   
1 hour ago, LeBoeufsGolfBall said:

Havertz will be a long term success, but it may take 2 years. I can’t say the same about Werner.

Fair enough.  But £75m seems a lot of money to spend on a player who "might" or "is quite likely" to become a success after two seasons. I can understand your calculation if we've just spent £15m on promising teenager.

The promises that we project on to Havertz seems far from the evidence of his performance in the Bundesliga.  I liken him to Paul Pogba - so many attributes of a top player, sometimes plays brilliant football, but never a consistent performer. 

To digress, ManUtd selling Pogba to Real Madrid or Juventus could be their deal of the transfer window.

Edited by Blue Rod

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