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paulw66   
6 hours ago, jangz said:

I dont know if it is just me but we rarely seem to have pacy wingers of FBs of premier league level graduating from the academy ... the last few I remember were palmer, boga and Baker when they were breaking through a couple of seasons back ..For me the likes of CHO and Reece seem more the exception than the trend..  having said that I do understand wing play is one of the most difficult positions to break through and we dont see many home grown players in other clubs either at this position.. 

I would say being a winger is the easiest place to break through. you can try things without too much damage if it doesn't come off, unlike playing in CM or defence. 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Ham said:

Spurs, Southampton and Liverpool haven't done badly with wide young home-grown players. 

Like who? Unless you are talking full backs. Even then, not sure who you mean with Spurs. 

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16 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Like who? Unless you are talking full backs. Even then, not sure who you mean with Spurs. 

Winks and Kane

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Ham   

To be honest I picked up on "home-grown" as opposed to coming through the respective academies. I was referring to wing backs and the fact that Spurs haven't been afraid to use young Brits whereas we've historically looked for an expensive overseas import.  Same with Liverpool currently.  

Southampton goes without saying as far as wide players are concerned. 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Ham said:

To be honest I picked up on "home-grown" as opposed to coming through the respective academies. I was referring to wing backs and the fact that Spurs haven't been afraid to use young Brits whereas we've historically looked for an expensive overseas import.  Same with Liverpool currently.  

Southampton goes without saying as far as wide players are concerned. 

There is a fair amount of rationale behind this......... Spurs' main use of young English players was when finishing 6th was a good season*. Kane was thrown in because Soldado was rubbish, and now they are trying to eat at the top table, all of their recent signings have been expensive foreigners. 

*likewise for Lampard to throw in Abraham and Mount when we have no exepctations to win anything at all this season, is much less of a diffcult choice. Likewise if Morata and Batshuyai had been the signings they were hoped to be, Abraham would be on loan somewhere else this season. 

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jangz   

 

8 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I would say being a winger is the easiest place to break through. you can try things without too much damage if it doesn't come off, unlike playing in CM or defence. 

these are also positions where you invest big and have star men so that means opportunity to play are also fewer.. apart from sterling at liverpool and rashford (broke through as a striker I can't think of any players who are HG for the big 4 and are first team (would iwobi be first team ?) ..

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Ham   
1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

There is a fair amount of rationale behind this......... Spurs' main use of young English players was when finishing 6th was a good season*. Kane was thrown in because Soldado was rubbish, and now they are trying to eat at the top table, all of their recent signings have been expensive foreigners. 

*likewise for Lampard to throw in Abraham and Mount when we have no exepctations to win anything at all this season, is much less of a diffcult choice. Likewise if Morata and Batshuyai had been the signings they were hoped to be, Abraham would be on loan somewhere else this season. 

All very true.  

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On 8/27/2019 at 6:34 PM, chiswickblue said:

Gilmour was on the bench in Istanbul ahead of Bakayoko!

Cruel.  Baka was only available on a technicality having finished his very successful loan season at Milan.
It would have been very odd if we had picked him for the bench.

18 hours ago, jangz said:

having said that I do understand wing play is one of the most difficult positions to break through

No, surely it is by far the easiest role to break through in.  To the point that many players start at wing before moving elsewhere in the team.  Most CFs for example.  Quite a lot of midfielders and FBs.

 

18 hours ago, jangz said:

I dont know if it is just me but we rarely seem to have pacy wingers of FBs of premier league level graduating from the academy ... the last few I remember were palmer, boga and Baker when they were breaking through a couple of seasons back

And Brown, Musonda, Sterling, (Baker I believe is not pacy).

I would have said we have many many pacy wingers breaking through from the Academy, and being pacy wingers they attract a lot of attention. But the Academy gains its success by having very few players of weak quality, and not by having a few of great quality.  The truths simply is we produce stacks of players of Div 1 or Championship quality, and until (we hope) very recently, none of top 6 quality.

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jangz   
On 8/29/2019 at 2:36 AM, Droy was my hero said:

No, surely it is by far the easiest role to break through in.  To the point that many players start at wing before moving elsewhere in the team.  Most CFs for example.  Quite a lot of midfielders and FBs.

 

And Brown, Musonda, Sterling, (Baker I believe is not pacy).

I would have said we have many many pacy wingers breaking through from the Academy, and being pacy wingers they attract a lot of attention. But the Academy gains its success by having very few players of weak quality, and not by having a few of great quality.  The truths simply is we produce stacks of players of Div 1 or Championship quality, and until (we hope) very recently, none of top 6 quality.

Then I guess what it means to break in.. I am talking about competing for minutes.. but most big teams have star players in these positions.. and also its probably the position where you have a lot of people who are great at one skill/attritbute but not rounded enough to be the absolute best.. just the fact that there are so few HG players starting in these positions tells me while on paper it maybe easy to get minutes.. breaking in is absolutely neccessary..

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