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Liverbird

Frank Arnesen

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A third of the time and about a hundreth of the cost.

Yes, indeed. And as earthshine points out, we actually paid Spurs big money to buy the tosser out of his contract with them! One of those occasions when I don't know whether to laugh, or cry.

Does this mean we get all our players back now?...............:).

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Bison   

And to think some people have the nerve to complain about Emenalo.

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Juni   

Playing a slight Devil's Advocate here, because whilst I'm not Arnesen's biggest fan I'm not especially interested in criticising him either, it's important to remember that he was placed in charge of an academy which he was a key part in beginning the overhaul of. It's hard to judge his work even now because most of the guys he signed/developed are still either side of 20, and even the oldest guys like Michael Mancienne or Liam Bridcutt (who is now a full international, of course) are only mid-20s with plenty of time ahead.

A clear, clear part of his remit was to accelerate the stature and recognition of the academy on a world stage at a rapid rate. To do that you need to put a competitive youth team out there domestically (since there was no real form of international competition like there is now the NextGen Series, although they had a couple of trial things going on) with players who, give or take an opportunity, could have a hack at first team football to show there was 'something coming through'.

Perhaps easier when you have a big budget and can attract the best 15/16yos in football but some credit has to be given for signing Bertrand, Bruma, Rajkovic, Stoch, Di Santo, Borini, Sinclair, Sahar and Tore, who are all now full internationals (Sinclair just for Team GB) at still tender ages and all having made a considerable impact at high-profile teams in high-profile leagues. Like I said, they might well have got there anyway but even recognising that, you have to give him some credit for it.

The increase in standard of coaching - and believe me, Arnesen had a huge role in the change of style throughout all age groups - has in turn benefitted every youngster coming through since he arrived. In 2005, Lewis Baker was 10. Ruben Loftus-Cheek was 9. These lads now have exclusively been developed in a system implemented in a large part by Arnesen and we're seeing the difference in quality they have compared to those a decade ago. There's a host of smaller, subtler things that were changed that didn't and still don't receive the publicity that the headlines have smothered.

The politics of the situation at the club were hardly ideal but to be fair it was a club at the time which didn't seem to know what it wanted from its structure, and only now does it really seem to be a smooth, cohesive operation with clearly defined roles.

Always two sides to everything, I'm more interested in weighing them both up and taking a long-term view rather than just hop on board the villification train because the DoF is always the easy scapegoat in England.

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gavhc   
And to think some people have the nerve to complain about Emenalo.
ME is doing a steady job. An awful lot of poorly informed nonsense is posted about the man. He's hoping for a few more Azpilivueta, Hazard, Moses, Omerou types in the future.

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Arnesen hasn't done anything excellent in probably over ten years. He still lives on his scouting of Ronaldo and Romario.

So do about half a dozen others.

Failure is a bastard. Success has many fathers.

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Playing a slight Devil's Advocate here, because whilst I'm not Arnesen's biggest fan I'm not especially interested in criticising him either, it's important to remember that he was placed in charge of an academy which he was a key part in beginning the overhaul of. It's hard to judge his work even now because most of the guys he signed/developed are still either side of 20, and even the oldest guys like Michael Mancienne or Liam Bridcutt (who is now a full international, of course) are only mid-20s with plenty of time ahead.

A clear, clear part of his remit was to accelerate the stature and recognition of the academy on a world stage at a rapid rate. To do that you need to put a competitive youth team out there domestically (since there was no real form of international competition like there is now the NextGen Series, although they had a couple of trial things going on) with players who, give or take an opportunity, could have a hack at first team football to show there was 'something coming through'.

Perhaps easier when you have a big budget and can attract the best 15/16yos in football but some credit has to be given for signing Bertrand, Bruma, Rajkovic, Stoch, Di Santo, Borini, Sinclair, Sahar and Tore, who are all now full internationals (Sinclair just for Team GB) at still tender ages and all having made a considerable impact at high-profile teams in high-profile leagues. Like I said, they might well have got there anyway but even recognising that, you have to give him some credit for it.

The increase in standard of coaching - and believe me, Arnesen had a huge role in the change of style throughout all age groups - has in turn benefitted every youngster coming through since he arrived. In 2005, Lewis Baker was 10. Ruben Loftus-Cheek was 9. These lads now have exclusively been developed in a system implemented in a large part by Arnesen and we're seeing the difference in quality they have compared to those a decade ago. There's a host of smaller, subtler things that were changed that didn't and still don't receive the publicity that the headlines have smothered.

The politics of the situation at the club were hardly ideal but to be fair it was a club at the time which didn't seem to know what it wanted from its structure, and only now does it really seem to be a smooth, cohesive operation with clearly defined roles.

Always two sides to everything, I'm more interested in weighing them both up and taking a long-term view rather than just hop on board the villification train because the DoF is always the easy scapegoat in England.

Most of them play a back-seat role at mediocre clubs. Some are starters for bad teams. None of them would warrant a start in any respectable side. Bertrand aside, of course. And you're ignoring how much money they cost us, Di Santo and Rajkovic alone should break the 10m barrier with transfers and wages. Not to mention the whole batch of total duds, that you didn't list (From memory alone, Jacopo Sala and the two kids from Leeds).

You might give him credit for overhauling the academy. Although I'm reluctant to do that, given his track record of talking BS and delivering nothing. Chances are, that the people in charge right now were the ones doing the work. And Arnesen is taking the credit, because, technically, he was in charge.

He's done badly in every measurable instance we have. I don't think I'm going to believe for a second that he's done well in the one instance we can't measure.

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Arnesen hasn't done anything excellent in probably over ten years. He still lives on his scouting of Ronaldo and Romario.

It was Piet Di viser who scouted them not Arnesen

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Juni   

Most of them play a back-seat role at mediocre clubs. Some are starters for bad teams. None of them would warrant a start in any respectable side. Bertrand aside, of course. And you're ignoring how much money they cost us, Di Santo and Rajkovic alone should break the 10m barrier with transfers and wages. Not to mention the whole batch of total duds, that you didn't list (From memory alone, Jacopo Sala and the two kids from Leeds).

You might give him credit for overhauling the academy. Although I'm reluctant to do that, given his track record of talking BS and delivering nothing. Chances are, that the people in charge right now were the ones doing the work. And Arnesen is taking the credit, because, technically, he was in charge.

He's done badly in every measurable instance we have. I don't think I'm going to believe for a second that he's done well in the one instance we can't measure.

You're right, most of them do, but that wasn't my point. They're all internationals, many of them established, and the eldest is what, 24? Give it another five years and see where their careers have taken them and you can really start to fully appraise the work of a Head of Youth Development, as he was for the majority of his time at Chelsea. Trying to do so sooner is judging an incomplete job; the road to Chelsea's first team is hardly the easiest, let alone the managerial instability which has been commonplace here, so it's not exactly just a case of sign the kids, develop them and watch them grow into superstars at the Bridge. If only it were that easy.

Yes, some of the signings were expensive, but like I said, they clearly paid excessively to get players in who could facilitate an acceleration in the stature of the academy. Part of that is simply the attraction, making players sit up and take notice that Chelsea is a realistic destination. Look at overseas imports pre-Arnesen/Abramovich; they were almost exclusively Italian and due solely to Vialli and Ranieri being in charge. The club increased its global presence at every level and it costs money to do that.

Sure, it's easy to rattle off the list that didn't make it (although I stress again, many are still early 20s and can easily change that), but simply put, more kids fail than succeed. No amount of money or high-profile hirings will change that. It doesn't even necessarily increase your hit-rate by signing 'the best' from overseas because there's no guarantee that a 16yo who's the best in his age group is going to get any better. It happens.

Fine if you don't want to give credit for the restructuring of the academy and the inherent changes in playing style, you claim not to be able to measure it. I like to think I've seen enough of the youth teams over the last seven years to be in a decent position to at least project an opinion on it (I simply won't go out and say I'm right because I don't do that, it's just an opinion). As far as I see it though, if you're in the role he was with the remit he was given and if certain results come out positive, refusing to credit him even in part makes you look like you have an agenda.

Like I said at the start, I'm sort of indifferent because I can see plenty of positives and plenty of negatives, but I'm not interested in scapegoating. In both the bigger and longer-term picture you can at least see what he was trying to achieve and the talent that at least some of these players have/had, but it's never been entirely in his control whether they got that chance at Chelsea.

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but simply put, more kids fail than succeed. No amount of money or high-profile hirings will change that. It doesn't even necessarily increase your hit-rate by signing 'the best' from overseas because there's no guarantee that a 16yo who's the best in his age group is going to get any better. It happens.

True but the real charge against FA is not that he failed attempting a task that was impossible.

It is that he urged Chelsea to spend hundreds of millions on the task. That he (we might presume) kept back funds for a full number of first team players in order to fund it. That he failed to buy the likes of OHM or even Azpi and Moses* because he wanted the glory of buying 10 unknowns instead for a couple of million and take the credit for one success. That he promised to deliver players he should have known that wouldn't arrive. That he pretended you could scale up a business that only works on a small to mid scale (eg Southampton or Villa) or with huge anti-competitive and semi-legal advantages (Holland, Barca, RM).

In other words he was a bullshitter that promised the moon and spent hundreds of millions for a return of Bertrand and about £20 million in sales.

My emotion in this is because in financial trading I saw many fakes arrive and promise that their ideas would make fortunes only to see these guys go on to lose a fortune. It was very predictable, and FA's failure was clear to see from right at the start.

* Between Kalou/Mikel in 2006 and 2011, how many U23 players that were ready for the first team have we bought? There must be a few but I can't think of any. Before there was Robben, Cech, Essien, Johnson and a whole host of 23 year olds like Bridge and SWP. Since we have bought nothing but. FA's period in control has meant that very few players who joined us over 2007-11 have remained. Ivanovic is the only one I can think of. Mikel and Ashley from 2006 but FA had no role in those.

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Playing a slight Devil's Advocate here, because whilst I'm not Arnesen's biggest fan I'm not especially interested in criticising him either, it's important to remember that he was placed in charge of an academy which he was a key part in beginning the overhaul of. It's hard to judge his work even now because most of the guys he signed/developed are still either side of 20, and even the oldest guys like Michael Mancienne or Liam Bridcutt (who is now a full international, of course) are only mid-20s with plenty of time ahead.

A clear, clear part of his remit was to accelerate the stature and recognition of the academy on a world stage at a rapid rate. To do that you need to put a competitive youth team out there domestically (since there was no real form of international competition like there is now the NextGen Series, although they had a couple of trial things going on) with players who, give or take an opportunity, could have a hack at first team football to show there was 'something coming through'.

Perhaps easier when you have a big budget and can attract the best 15/16yos in football but some credit has to be given for signing Bertrand, Bruma, Rajkovic, Stoch, Di Santo, Borini, Sinclair, Sahar and Tore, who are all now full internationals (Sinclair just for Team GB) at still tender ages and all having made a considerable impact at high-profile teams in high-profile leagues. Like I said, they might well have got there anyway but even recognising that, you have to give him some credit for it.

The increase in standard of coaching - and believe me, Arnesen had a huge role in the change of style throughout all age groups - has in turn benefitted every youngster coming through since he arrived. In 2005, Lewis Baker was 10. Ruben Loftus-Cheek was 9. These lads now have exclusively been developed in a system implemented in a large part by Arnesen and we're seeing the difference in quality they have compared to those a decade ago. There's a host of smaller, subtler things that were changed that didn't and still don't receive the publicity that the headlines have smothered.

The politics of the situation at the club were hardly ideal but to be fair it was a club at the time which didn't seem to know what it wanted from its structure, and only now does it really seem to be a smooth, cohesive operation with clearly defined roles.

Always two sides to everything, I'm more interested in weighing them both up and taking a long-term view rather than just hop on board the villification train because the DoF is always the easy scapegoat in England.

Sterling effort to make a the case for the defence Juni but that list of FA's better deals you give is like a not quite memorable band putting out a greatest hits album. Not many people buy it, they just scratch their heads and wonder why.

As history has shown, and as you regularly try to remind everyone, it is very hard to recruit and develop young players of the right level to make the first team squads of top four clubs. Nevertheless, that was the task for which FA was expensively recruited and handsomely paid. At Spurs, with us, and again now at Hamburg, he is not widely seen as having been success. I'm not sure he really deserves to retain a big reputation in the game. Let's see what his next job reveals about that.

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