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If we are not asking for a delay because we think we may get an increased ban based on a frivolous appeal, why are we even bothering to appeal in the first place?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

I think it would be CAS that would be determining whether to apply that or not. I know its different elsewhere but if it was UK law the CAS wouldn't be dancing to FIFA's tune and it would be based on previous case law, as far as I know FIFA aren't a legal body so they have rules or terms based on child slavery laws rather than their own laws. The extension would also be for frivolous appeals. Given that the FA ratified the deals I would say we have good reason to appeal, maybe not on all the cases but a lot of them, without it being deemed frivolous. I don't think it is just a blanket extension on all appeals lost. In the UK everybody has the right to appeal any decision all the way up the court system. When you appeal, in order to save the courts time on frivolous appeals, they decide whether you have grounds for an appeal and proceed with it, or they throw it out. It could be that is what we are waiting on and if they indicate we have good grounds we will appeal to have the ban frozen.

Fifa have really fudged it with the timing of their original decision, it would be in everyone's interest including their own to issue decisions on 1st February and 1st September.

FIFA, it seems, felt clubs like Barca and AM were 'playing the system'... appealing knowing the original ban would be upheld, but also knowing that the appeal would give them a period of 'grace' as it were, during which they would be able to strengthen. So FIFA has attempted to change its rules to try to ensure the punishment they intended is not watered down.Whether FIFA ultimately are legally entitled to change their own rules is not for me to debate... I'm just trying to explain to those who keep claiming that we will be able to buy players this summer (because others have in the past) that this time things may very well be different.

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Ham   

It was my understanding that the reason why we aren't guaranteed a period of grace whilst the appeal is considered is because FIFA consider that the precedent has been clearly set already by the Spanish clubs and that our offence is similar enough to make an appeal pointless. 

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BlueFizz   

Lots of interesting points here - great to have something real to discuss.

My own view is that we know what we're doing (I know that's hard for some of us to believe) and will be very well adviced by very expensive, specialist sports law lawyers.

Why not ask for a 'stay'?

Perhaps we have been told the appeal can be heard fairly quickly, giving us some of this window

Perhaps we are concerned FIFA could respond aggressively and increase the ban - or conversely that seeing us not asking for it to be put back will incline them to reduce the ban to one window

Perhaps we want to do this in a more ethical way than Real and Barca

There may of course be other reasons we don't know - in my experience of the law, tactics can seem pretty weird to the lay person

 

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4 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

FIFA, it seems, felt clubs like Barca and AM were 'playing the system'... appealing knowing the original ban would be upheld, but also knowing that the appeal would give them a period of 'grace' as it were, during which they would be able to strengthen. So FIFA has attempted to change its rules to try to ensure the punishment they intended is not watered down.Whether FIFA ultimately are legally entitled to change their own rules is not for me to debate... I'm just trying to explain to those who keep claiming that we will be able to buy players this summer (because others have in the past) that this time things may very well be different.

Thanks for sharing the info. If we're judged innocent until proven guilty then I think fairly certainly we should be able to delay the ban if we ask for CAS for it to be delayed. Whether or not that means another window ban later on who knows.

4 minutes ago, Ham said:

It was my understanding that the reason why we aren't guaranteed a period of grace whilst the appeal is considered is because FIFA consider that the precedent has been clearly set already by the Spanish clubs and that our offence is similar enough to make an appeal pointless. 

That is why FIFA said they would not grant a period of grace, CAS however have to follow legal procedures.

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31 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

FIFA, it seems, felt clubs like Barca and AM were 'playing the system'... appealing knowing the original ban would be upheld, but also knowing that the appeal would give them a period of 'grace' as it were, during which they would be able to strengthen. So FIFA has attempted to change its rules to try to ensure the punishment they intended is not watered down.Whether FIFA ultimately are legally entitled to change their own rules is not for me to debate... I'm just trying to explain to those who keep claiming that we will be able to buy players this summer (because others have in the past) that this time things may very well be different.

You seem to have an understanding of all this Bob but do you have any links showing that FIFA have changed their rules?

 

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5 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

You seem to have an understanding of all this Bob but do you have any links showing that FIFA have changed their rules?

 

Back in Jan/Feb when it was mooted that FIFA were about to charge Chelsea there were a couple articles I read saying FIFA had wanted to close previous 'loopholes' that allowed clubs (whose bans were subsequently upheld after all appeals had been made) to delay the bans and register new players. This included FIFA trying to speed up their own proceedures as well as having the option to increase the ban following failed appeals. However, I honestly can't remember where I read those articles (and I can assure you that I have searched). I'm pretty sure they weren't from what might be considered MSM (ie Sky Sports, Times, Telegraph etc) nor from the more hyperbolic news feeds... one of them might even have been 'We Ain't...", but I'm not sure. I wish I'd bookmarked the links now.

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5 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Back in Jan/Feb when it was mooted that FIFA were about to charge Chelsea there were a couple articles I read saying FIFA had wanted to close previous 'loopholes' that allowed clubs (whose bans were subsequently upheld after all appeals had been made) to delay the bans and register new players. This included FIFA trying to speed up their own proceedures as well as having the option to increase the ban following failed appeals. However, I honestly can't remember where I read those articles (and I can assure you that I have searched). I'm pretty sure they weren't from what might be considered MSM (ie Sky Sports, Times, Telegraph etc) nor from the more hyperbolic news feeds... one of them might even have been 'We Ain't...", but I'm not sure. I wish I'd bookmarked the links now.

No worries Bob, thanks.

In terms of them having the option to increase the ban due to a failed appeal I thought they could only that when a club fails in their appeal to them but not CAS. It would make a mockery of being able to appeal to a legal court only to have your ban extended if the appeal failed. In fact I think it very unlikely that they could legally do it. Is there any precedent for this anywhere else outside the world of football?

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From all perspectives I will be amazed if the ban is not lifted for this summer as it would require CAS to set a new precedent, since it would mean that they :

A) have changed their stance fron innocent until proven guilty to guilty until proven innocent.

Or 

B) Fast tracking appeals (as they would have to rule before the end of the week) which would also be unprecedented. 

For me FIFA may not like it but they also cannot do much about it as CAS have jurisdiction over their rulings. That said, I fully expect us to get the two window ban as that is what they gave Atleti even after halving Real's who had been banned for the same reason. 

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Rumours in Holland starting to say that we are sniffing around Ten Hag. For me, he is someone that makes a lot more sense than SFL who imo still needs another good few years before he should be considered. Additionallly, if we sign him I reckon that would put us in a strong position to appeal to players such as De Ligt and Harvetz. Two players, who whilst very young are already high level performers.

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