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6 minutes ago, chelboy said:

Comparing DM’s that play in completely different systems and opposite ends of the table. What’s been clear for a while now is Jorginho needs protection as a DM. If he is playing beside two other Dm’s such as Kante and Kova he tends to look more comfortable and plays well. If he has attacking minded midfielders playing with him he gets heavily exposed. Unless we go back to a similar Sarri system with 3 DM’s I don’t see much use of Jorginho. Possibly he could play in a 442 diamond if we play that. 

Your right it's never easy to do a direct comparison and you have to bear in mind the context when looking through the stats. Usually you would expect to see the player at the lesser club with higher tackles/interceptions given they will be out of possession for longer. What that does highlight is how much unsung work Jorginho is doing especially from a possession stand point. People suggesting you can replace a quality, experienced 28 year old DM with a 21 year old who is not setting the league on fire may end up disappointed when the team suffers. That's not to say Rice can't grow but at the prices it will cost I would expect something closer to the finished product. 

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I think we need to take on board that Declan Rice won player of the year at West Ham this year , they watch him week in week out , he must surely be doing something right ? 

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paulw66   
20 minutes ago, chelboy said:

Comparing DM’s that play in completely different systems and opposite ends of the table. What’s been clear for a while now is Jorginho needs protection as a DM. If he is playing beside two other Dm’s such as Kante and Kova he tends to look more comfortable and plays well. If he has attacking minded midfielders playing with him he gets heavily exposed. Unless we go back to a similar Sarri system with 3 DM’s I don’t see much use of Jorginho. Possibly he could play in a 442 diamond if we play that. 

If we are going to continue with a system where our FBs are playing as auxilary wingers, then the DM needs to be more mobile to cover. If that means playing 2 deep, Jorgi and Kante for example, then fine.

I do wonder though with us having more quality in attack next season, the FBs don't need to be so cavalier. If we are getting more goals from Ziyech, Werner and Havertz, then there is less pressure on defenders to make a contribution.

You're also right in that using numbers to compare a DM whose side often play a low block and finished 16th is very different to playing DM in a system where you dominate the ball, play a high press and often have 7 outfield players ahead of the bal. 

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paulw66   
4 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think we need to take on board that Declan Rice won player of the year at West Ham this year , they watch him week in week out , he must surely be doing something right ? 

So he is west ham's best player.......would you buy any others?

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23 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

So he is west ham's best player.......would you buy any others?

Yes.

Fabianski.

Well, you did ask .

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46 minutes ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

You can also look at Fabinho, Fernandinho, Casemeiro as destroyers in the DM role. My concern is that all of these players including Matic and Mikel are more technically proficient than anything I've seen of Rice. If you have aspirations to be the best you might not need a Jorginho style playmaker but I do think that DM needs to be very comfortable in possession. In modern football you often see DMs drop to CB to improve the teams ability to pass out from the back but I can't think of too many recent examples of big CBs sitting in midfield at the elite level. 

Fair enough.  I guess my point is that if he can play DM for WHU he can play CB for WHU with certainty.  Not that he can play either position for us - and I really wouldn't want to watch enough WHU games to be able to judge on that.

46 minutes ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

Another day by the riverbank 

Sarri was at the helm of Juventus when Frank started to play Jorginho. I doubt it had anything to do with Frank trying to sure up a top 4 finish?

Not really and surely you don't think Jorginho was picked ahead of better players.
Why don't you get back to those overly blunt but at least decipherable posts of old.  Mystic Meg doesn't suit.

 

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chelboy   
49 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

If we are going to continue with a system where our FBs are playing as auxilary wingers, then the DM needs to be more mobile to cover. If that means playing 2 deep, Jorgi and Kante for example, then fine.

I do wonder though with us having more quality in attack next season, the FBs don't need to be so cavalier. If we are getting more goals from Ziyech, Werner and Havertz, then there is less pressure on defenders to make a contribution.

You're also right in that using numbers to compare a DM whose side often play a low block and finished 16th is very different to playing DM in a system where you dominate the ball, play a high press and often have 7 outfield players ahead of the bal. 

Next season should see us playing a more balanced system. I would be surprised if we still need to have flying full backs getting very high up the pitch. 

If Havertz comes then I’m guessing he plays alongside Mount who I can’t see being dropped. Who plays in between them is hard to predict. It’s possible some games we can play with two dm’s but most games especially against lower half teams I see us playing with one. That leaves Kova, Jorg, Kante and possibly Gilmour fighting for one place. I see one or two leaving in the next 3 windows. 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Yes.

Fabianski.

Well, you did ask .

You would actually buy him?

I get that one might pick him over Kepa, but is that the bar for a replacement?

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59 minutes ago, chelboy said:

Next season should see us playing a more balanced system. I would be surprised if we still need to have flying full backs getting very high up the pitch. 

If Havertz comes then I’m guessing he plays alongside Mount who I can’t see being dropped. Who plays in between them is hard to predict. It’s possible some games we can play with two dm’s but most games especially against lower half teams I see us playing with one. That leaves Kova, Jorg, Kante and possibly Gilmour fighting for one place. I see one or two leaving in the next 3 windows. 

If Havertz comes, he'll be wide right (Willian) rather than alongside Mount like Barkley/Loftus-Cheek/Kovacic

I love Kanté but he's started to look a little less 'dynamic' these days... maybe, at 29, it's time to cash in if suitable offers come in? I imagine Jorginho is the next most likely to leave of those four you mention.
 

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paulw66   
5 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

If Havertz comes, he'll be wide right (Willian) rather than alongside Mount like Barkley/Loftus-Cheek/Kovacic

I love Kanté but he's started to look a little less 'dynamic' these days... maybe, at 29, it's time to cash in if suitable offers come in? I imagine Jorginho is the next most likely to leave of those four you mention.
 

isn't that where Ziyech is lned up to play?

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