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5 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

It sounds like a mystery that the one player in our midfield who has hardly moved a muscle before TT came in has made us solid. Except that is not a mystery and we have not been solid. We have created an illusion of being solid. But our results don't lie. 

So what happens when Jorginho is in the modern No 6 position (I take it you mean the pivot). What happens is that the likes of Mount, Kante, Kovacic go about doing all the hard work, kicking and getting kicked. The arrangement itself is not a bad one. After all, it frees Jorginho to create. But does he create? Absolulety not. This season, Thiago Silva has probably hit more creative passes than Jorginho. With Kante or Kovacic darting around, the position of Jorginho would a gift to the likes of Kevin De Bryne. He would simply tear opponents to shreds. Jorginho has been a luxury - no defensive contribution, no creative contribution either.  

What happens when Kovacic or Kante moves into No 6 is that there is no one to go about putting out fires.

That is the mystery of our solid Jorginho debunked. 

All very true.

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11 hours ago, GURJ SS said:

Bissouma and the rest of the players you've mentioned just aren't good enough at doing what Jorginho does, their decision making doesn't come close, their leadership skills don't come close, there's more to football than kick and run. Being technical in a possession based team is vital, speed of the pass even more vital, a more rounded player can chase the opposition down but when on the ball won't be able to read the game or have the desired effect on the game. If you're talking about replacing Jorginho, we could replace Kante with Ward-Prowse and not lose but gain something.

Interesting how you've only used the last 18months of the Prem, and interesting how Klopp has gone and got a Jorginho type of player, because he'd anticipated teams would be harder to break down this season, however injuries haven't been kind to them this season. Klopp plays a certain system which goes from 433 in defence to 235 in attack - his middle 3 never leave post and were last season 3 industrious players, and the fullbacks went right up top of the wings which allows Salah and Mane free roles, but what it did was give freedom to keep 5 players in attack. We are currently playing 3421 in defence and 32141/3242 in attack, the advantage we will probably have is because we have 3 centre backs we don't have to worry about having industrious players in midfield, because a team wanting to go through the middle will run into too many numbers so they'll go down the wings, and we're set up for our 1 attacking mid to drop back and one of our 6 players either goes wide early or if not the centre back comes out to the wing and they drop into defence(at least until the wide men get back). The way Tuchel has set up over the last two games is 5 players filling gaps with our 5 attacking players becoming the pressing players. In this system Kante would sit and not press much, that literally takes most of his game away, if he played further forward he'd be pressing and playing to his strengths; if he tries his pressing came from a 6 position then Kova better be prepared to become the player who just sits and does nothing in terms of going forward, because otherwise he'll be sprinting back just to cover for Kante being pulled out of position.

 

I have used the last 18 months because its the most real live data we have to offer. If you are not happy with the last 18 months and want to go back further, I will hand it back to you to name me a central midfielder in a similar mould to Jorginho who has won titles in England? Fernandinho , Matic, Kante, Drinkwater, Fabregas (Similar in build/pace - Huge difference in tangible effectiveness!).......if you want to go back further Fletcher, Scholes.

The only player I can think of who has been in title winning teams in England and plays in a similar way to Jorginho is Michael Carrick. That's one player in the last 10-20 years. He had a much more physical presence and is a far more effective player than Jorginho. Jorginho would pass sideways and backwards more in one game that Carrick would in 10 games.

You can tell me football is not kick and run all day long, you can tell me how its progressed and moved on all day long and how much more tactical it is. Until you find me players like Jorginho who have played significant part in winning league titles, its all just words with very little to back it up.

As for the likes of Bissouma not being good enough. You may be proved right,  if decision making and leadership skills are all you can offer me as the key differences. Well I think I am prepared to take my chances then, because the advantages of this type of player will far outweigh the possible disadvantages ( they are only possible disadvantages too - Someone like Bissouma may thrive in terms of leadership and pointing once stepped up a level)

Let's be honest with football leadership, it comes in a number of different forms. Jorginho's leadership is he is a brain on the football pitch and that's about where it ends really. He's hardly JT or Dennis Wise is he. He's very good at offering an outlet for the ball and pointing at space telling people where they should be.

Edited by LeBoeufsGolfBall

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The Jorginho argument is pointless.

He will play the majority of the remaining matches this season, TT has been given a minimum target from the Gods for this season; and the only way he is going to get near or achieve the target is to utilize the best players available to him, a 29 year old with 50 odd international caps is a better/safer option than a 19 year old 160 minutes of PL football under his belt.  TT is not one for development coaching especially with the goals set by the Gods.

I would be surprised if there is any changes to the back 3 and middle 2 for the spuds match and beyond.

 

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1 hour ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

The Jorginho argument is pointless.

He will play the majority of the remaining matches this season, TT has been given a minimum target from the Gods for this season; and the only way he is going to get near or achieve the target is to utilize the best players available to him, a 29 year old with 50 odd international caps is a better/safer option than a 19 year old 160 minutes of PL football under his belt.  TT is not one for development coaching especially with the goals set by the Gods.

I would be surprised if there is any changes to the back 3 and middle 2 for the spuds match and beyond.

 

The debate isn't about the remainder of this season though. It's about the next 2-3 seasons. No one in this specific debate is talking about a 19 year old.

You may well be right on the remainder of this season. I find it hard to believe that Tuchel will not want to use Kante and if formation/tactics remain similar to how they are now. Well you won't fit Kante in without dropping Kovacic or Jorginho. So whilst I think you are probably right that Jorginho will play the majority of remaining games, I doubt it will be quite as obvious as that.

Kovacic has looked much better in the last two games under Tuchel.

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10 hours ago, GURJ SS said:

Definitely looking forward for it, it will be interesting to see. It won't surprise me if he looks to be staying more permanent that he totally changes the look of the middle, and Kovacic is the only one that survives.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, the only way Kovacic survives is as deputy to better players - whether they are the current pair or another pair/

2 hours ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

I would be surprised if there is any changes to the back 3 and middle 2 for the spuds match and beyond.

Kante for Kovacic looks nailed on for me - when fit.  I can't believe the recent PSG manager hasn't seen a ton of scouting reports recommending Kante*.  Other than that only James for Azpi at RCB seems likely to me, injuries and occasional rotation aside.

*Unfortunately for Zouma, TT has probably seen 3 or 4 reports explaining why he would never be a good fit for PSG.
I wonder how much TT's views had on Frank's selection for the past month, FA cup aside.

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GURJ SS   
3 hours ago, LeBoeufsGolfBall said:

I have used the last 18 months because its the most real live data we have to offer. If you are not happy with the last 18 months and want to go back further, I will hand it back to you to name me a central midfielder in a similar mould to Jorginho who has won titles in England? Fernandinho , Matic, Kante, Drinkwater, Fabregas (Similar in build/pace - Huge difference in tangible effectiveness!).......if you want to go back further Fletcher, Scholes.

The only player I can think of who has been in title winning teams in England and plays in a similar way to Jorginho is Michael Carrick. That's one player in the last 10-20 years. He had a much more physical presence and is a far more effective player than Jorginho. Jorginho would pass sideways and backwards more in one game that Carrick would in 10 games.

You can tell me football is not kick and run all day long, you can tell me how its progressed and moved on all day long and how much more tactical it is. Until you find me players like Jorginho who have played significant part in winning league titles, its all just words with very little to back it up.

As for the likes of Bissouma not being good enough. You may be proved right,  if decision making and leadership skills are all you can offer me as the key differences. Well I think I am prepared to take my chances then, because the advantages of this type of player will far outweigh the possible disadvantages ( they are only possible disadvantages too - Someone like Bissouma may thrive in terms of leadership and pointing once stepped up a level)

Let's be honest with football leadership, it comes in a number of different forms. Jorginho's leadership is he is a brain on the football pitch and that's about where it ends really. He's hardly JT or Dennis Wise is he. He's very good at offering an outlet for the ball and pointing at space telling people where they should be.

Kante plays nothing like Fernandinho, Matic, Drinkwater, Cesc, Fletcher or Scholars. So while it's easy to throw names up in the air, it's also worth noticing that Kante doesn't fit the mold as he has won the league for 2 counter attacking teams, and when counter attack hasn't been the main focus of tactics his performances took a dive off the cliff edge (also after Leicester's miracle season where every other top team flopped, they look better in midfield now than when Kante and Drinkwater played for them, they actually play football through the middle now). Kante under Conte was the Kante we signed, he hasn't been the same since because we don't play in a fixed counter attack system. There's a huge difference between attacking football and counter attacking football, Liverpool play attacking football and Spurs play counter attacking football.

Do you really believe we've had the team to win a league in the last few years, or is Jorginho the reason we haven't won it. Our team has had 30-40% of the quality needed from a whole squad to win it. I highly doubt you think Jorginho is responsible for not being able to provide the other 60-70% all on his own.

You named Carrick then side stepped, you named Cesc and then side stepped. You've already named players but you won't accept them so I can't provide you with names. You've even suggested Drinkwater and Fletcher are the type of players we'd need, I think it's safe to say we don't.

It wasn't just leadership skills, but this debate is now narrowing into nit picking. Jorginho is a better passer, better reader of the game, better communicator, better positionally. Yes he can't run as fast or tackle as well as Bussouma, but if that's all we need then how have we managed to not win the league with Kante in the side for so long. The debate of winning the league doesn't fall on Kante's shoulders or Jorginho's, neither are the reason we haven't won it.

He doesn't have to be a JT or Wise, for some he could never be that regardless of what he does. Silva isn't a JT, nor is Dave, no one is. His brain, his pointing and telling people where to go, being available as an outlet, are all the reasons we aren't in a worse position than we potentially could have been.

In your latest post you said Kovacic looked much better under Tuchel, well so has Jorginho, actually so far they have looked like just what we've needed all along.

I think we'll have to settle on you'd play Kante as a 6 possibly alongside Kova or on his own. I'd play Jorginho in a single 6 with Mount and Kova/Kante as 8s, or I'd play Kova and Jorginho as a double 6 with Kante as an 8 supporting a 10 - depending on if we go with 3 or 4 at the back.

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39 minutes ago, GURJ SS said:

Kante plays nothing like Fernandinho, Matic, Drinkwater, Cesc, Fletcher or Scholars. So while it's easy to throw names up in the air, it's also worth noticing that Kante doesn't fit the mold as he has won the league for 2 counter attacking teams, and when counter attack hasn't been the main focus of tactics his performances took a dive off the cliff edge

Half agree.  Yes in a team with 70% possession Kante looks rather pointless.  I'm not sure that means he is.  Looking at say City, a lot of what they do is getting the ball back very quickly when they lose it.  For Chelsea when we have played possession football again what is key if not always noticeable is how quickly we regain possession when we lose it.  That Kante does this so easily tends to hide just how important it is.  Replace Kante with a ball player in say Sarri's side, you would soon notice the difference.

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1 hour ago, GURJ SS said:

Kante plays nothing like Fernandinho, Matic, Drinkwater, Cesc, Fletcher or Scholars. So while it's easy to throw names up in the air, it's also worth noticing that Kante doesn't fit the mold as he has won the league for 2 counter attacking teams, and when counter attack hasn't been the main focus of tactics his performances took a dive off the cliff edge (also after Leicester's miracle season where every other top team flopped, they look better in midfield now than when Kante and Drinkwater played for them, they actually play football through the middle now). Kante under Conte was the Kante we signed, he hasn't been the same since because we don't play in a fixed counter attack system. There's a huge difference between attacking football and counter attacking football, Liverpool play attacking football and Spurs play counter attacking football.

Do you really believe we've had the team to win a league in the last few years, or is Jorginho the reason we haven't won it. Our team has had 30-40% of the quality needed from a whole squad to win it. I highly doubt you think Jorginho is responsible for not being able to provide the other 60-70% all on his own.

You named Carrick then side stepped, you named Cesc and then side stepped. You've already named players but you won't accept them so I can't provide you with names. You've even suggested Drinkwater and Fletcher are the type of players we'd need, I think it's safe to say we don't.

It wasn't just leadership skills, but this debate is now narrowing into nit picking. Jorginho is a better passer, better reader of the game, better communicator, better positionally. Yes he can't run as fast or tackle as well as Bussouma, but if that's all we need then how have we managed to not win the league with Kante in the side for so long. The debate of winning the league doesn't fall on Kante's shoulders or Jorginho's, neither are the reason we haven't won it.

He doesn't have to be a JT or Wise, for some he could never be that regardless of what he does. Silva isn't a JT, nor is Dave, no one is. His brain, his pointing and telling people where to go, being available as an outlet, are all the reasons we aren't in a worse position than we potentially could have been.

In your latest post you said Kovacic looked much better under Tuchel, well so has Jorginho, actually so far they have looked like just what we've needed all along.

I think we'll have to settle on you'd play Kante as a 6 possibly alongside Kova or on his own. I'd play Jorginho in a single 6 with Mount and Kova/Kante as 8s, or I'd play Kova and Jorginho as a double 6 with Kante as an 8 supporting a 10 - depending on if we go with 3 or 4 at the back.

You're making your own assumptions and adding made up things into the debate. I named you Cesc, but highlighted tangible effectiveness. Cesc has a shed load of PL Goals and assists in his career. Which means he is far more effective than Jorginho. It was me that gave you Carrick and Cesc as examples, I have not side  stepped them, I offered them up!

I have never at any point suggested Drinkwater or Fletcher are the type of players we need. Not once in any passage of this conversation! It really is easy to follow if you try. I have named them as players effective enough to win titles in Jorginho's position. Whilst Jorginho has won one major cup. Not all down to him, but he has had some very good players around him over the last 6 years and if he was this modern thinking genius footballer you have tried to present him as, well he should have been far closer to leading teams to titles than he has!

As for the final bold sentences. We don't have to settle on who I would play in the debate about Kovacic/Kante/Jorginho because I am not talking about which one I would play. I am talking about why I believe we need alternative options. We may have missed the boat to really cash in on Kante. Kovacic probably is a squad player option if we really want to win trophies and Jorginho is not a viable option at all imo if we want to win major trophies in England. 

So its not about who I would play. Its about we need new options who are more flexible and more effective to try and win the PL.

It's a really simple discussion, but you are taking it off on made up tangents in your defence of Jorginho.

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GURJ SS   
3 hours ago, LeBoeufsGolfBall said:

You're making your own assumptions and adding made up things into the debate. I named you Cesc, but highlighted tangible effectiveness. Cesc has a shed load of PL Goals and assists in his career. Which means he is far more effective than Jorginho. It was me that gave you Carrick and Cesc as examples, I have not side  stepped them, I offered them up!

I have never at any point suggested Drinkwater or Fletcher are the type of players we need. Not once in any passage of this conversation! It really is easy to follow if you try. I have named them as players effective enough to win titles in Jorginho's position. Whilst Jorginho has won one major cup. Not all down to him, but he has had some very good players around him over the last 6 years and if he was this modern thinking genius footballer you have tried to present him as, well he should have been far closer to leading teams to titles than he has!

As for the final bold sentences. We don't have to settle on who I would play in the debate about Kovacic/Kante/Jorginho because I am not talking about which one I would play. I am talking about why I believe we need alternative options. We may have missed the boat to really cash in on Kante. Kovacic probably is a squad player option if we really want to win trophies and Jorginho is not a viable option at all imo if we want to win major trophies in England. 

So its not about who I would play. Its about we need new options who are more flexible and more effective to try and win the PL.

It's a really simple discussion, but you are taking it off on made up tangents in your defence of Jorginho.

Cesc wasn't a 6, he was an 8 even when he sat deep our game plan was using him to go long to Costa. Put Cesc in a 2 and tell him to play out to the full backs and not go forward, he wouldn't be as effective. In the last 2 games we've seen Jorge move further up the pitch more than we've seen him do his own Chelsea career; that's on the managers.

When you're bringing their names up as players who won the league, then say Jorginho isn't title winning quality, then you'd prefer them to Jorginho. So when Jorginho wins a cup it's because he has good players around him, but when others do it, it's because they had Fletcher in their side. You clearly don't like Jorginho as a footballer, but we've lost games and also not been able to control games when he hasn't played, just like we've lost games and not been able to control them when he has played, but we've have faired better when he played. I think the issue is that when I defend Jorginho you think I'm saying he's the ultimate footballer, but that's not the case, but it's frustrating to see our fans continue to blame one player so much, to nitpick him out of the whole squad. Since Tuchel has come in many players performances have moved up a level, yet for some reason Jorginho is beyond praise for some.

I agree and disagree, I think we missed out on selling Kante and we were looking at getting some big money for him, but at the time (Madrid?) came asking I think we needed to keep our core intact as much as possible. I think that's where we'll have to agree to disagree, I think we can win the league with Jorginho, but the answer to that question is irrelevant because we can't win it regardless of if he's here or not.

Again, we're not a title winning team, Kante and Jorginho are not part of the debate as to why we aren't a title winning team. We've got inexperience and misfiring new signings which are our main issues at the moment, but most of all for the last 18months we haven't had a manager capable of challenging for it.

I think this debate is dead in the water, let's move on.

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On 2/2/2021 at 9:44 PM, GURJ SS said:

I

Bissouma and the rest of the players you've mentioned just aren't good enough at doing what Jorginho does, their decision making doesn't come close, their leadership skills don't come close, there's more to football than kick and run. Being technical in a possession based team is vital, speed of the pass even more vital, a more rounded player can chase the opposition down but when on the ball won't be able to read the game or have the desired effect on the game. If you're talking about replacing Jorginho, we could replace Kante with Ward-Prowse and not lose but gain something.

 

Without looking to start the debate again. He looked good enough dominating the Liverpool midfield last night. So much so, quite a few comments from Liverpool fans on how he is the complete midfielder and perfect replacement for Wijnaldum if he is off at the end of the season.

That's 4 clean sheets in a row for them and he has sat in front and completley dominated Spurs and Liverpool's midfielder in back to back games.

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