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JaneB

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Faramir   
22 minutes ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

Maybe. I apologise 

The man took the job with a clearly defined set of deliverables, which IMO he will achieve. 

Is TY anything more than another interim. The jury is out on that one.  

How do you know what the expectations were, and what was discussed about style of play etc...?

You speak this stuff as if it were fact.

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Faramir   
3 minutes ago, Worsebytheday said:

Liverpool losing to Everton

Nice for us if Liverpool lose again, but not nice for us if Everton win. Perhaps a draw will be best?

I'm glad City beat both these teams recently.

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Faramir   
1 minute ago, Blue Rod said:

Does anyone know what's happened to Havertz? I thought he might start or at least come on today.  

He was back in training after the two day break, so that would of been Wednesday. Perhaps this game came too early for match day fitness?

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54 minutes ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

What else do you expect. 

TT took the job with a loaded gun at his head. Top 4 or bye bye.

if he doesn’t get the top 4 or winning the CL he’s gone.  

Maybe.  Actually I suspect TT himself said "look if this team ain't good enough to get a CL place this time around, I'm off".
Not that he would have said that to the media.

39 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Firstly , do we really need to hear this every time he plays ?

Secondly the point regarding Kante and Zouma is utter nonsense.

Firstly - clearly you do need reminding.
Secondly - it is not just me - try this:

27 minutes ago, GURJ SS said:

What Jorginho has over Kante and Kovacic is he knows when to take a touch or make it a first time pass every time the ball is coming his way, he knows when he can receive the ball on the half turn and when he can't, but most of all he knows where everyone is. Kante tends to pass the ball to a player in the direction he's originally facing unless he has a lot of room, Kova if moving another way has to dribble away, Jorginho has a quick glance and opens his body up; what then seems like a backwards or sideways pass is actually moving the ball to the other side of the pitch either through a direct pass or using a teammate, making the opposition have to shift across, what it also does is allow his teammates to spread out and receive the ball and also get their head up for an early pass forwards. One of the things I like the most about him, when his teammates have no way out he'll show himself, it's up to then his teammate to be brave enough to make the pass, but what he won't do is hide behind a player, which I see not from just out central mids but many more 'top class' mids in the league. I think that's why Pep wanted him, because he'll show and keep the flow going, in the games we've flowed best in we've looked great bringing the ball out of defence.

Then it's positioning, Jorginho will drop Central and sometimes only 5 yards in front of the centre back, but what it does is allow an overlap from Azpi. Kante is very right side bias in his movements on the pitch, so today he was bringing opposition players out wide and Azpi couldn't get out, James had to drop deep and ended up receiving the ball facing his own goals too often. If Jorginho was playing, Minamino would have dropped in to go with him and Azpi would have gone on the outside after receiving the ball off Zouma. This would have lead to Mount and James overloading the right wing with Dave supporting, instead it ended up with the opposition already having players there because Kante refused to move from a right side bias role of RCM.

Kante as an individual has many attributes that are useful, but his decision making and positioning in a possession based team is what lets him down. He'd flourish in a counterattacking set up. If I was Tuchel I'd have played Christensen, Jorginho and CHO today instead of Zouma, Kante and James. Then midweek used Zouma, Kante and James, with Kante in front of Kovacic and Jorginho; in the hope of defending and nicking one on the break. Surely he wasn't thinking of rotating for today's game to then go toe to toe with A.Madrid? The team today was setup more for a counter attack against the likes of A.Madrid than they were for Southampton. We are however strong enough to beat Southampton but went way too negative with the team selection.

Of course there's players out there that could probably do a better job for us than Jorginho, but they are your Verrati or Gundogen type of players, not a Kante or Nditi type of player.

Quite. Nicely put.  Of course it is harsh to criticise a player for looking good only in a non-possession team when we would not have nearly so much possession without him.  Nor will we often play teams as happy to live off scraps of possession as Southampton.  Kante's strong points will be much more useful on Tuesday.

On the team for AM I'm not sure what he was planning or how he was rotating ahead.  Today's team looks closer to what I might expect for Tuesday - as you pretty much say yourself.  But injuries aside, Tuesday is a big test and should require our strongest team.  I curious as to what it will be.

I was reading a piece a few weeks ago about how players glance around to look at where colleagues and opponents are.  Some do it frequently, others rarely.  Jorginho does it a lot.  Near the end of the game there was a Southampton attack where the striker was bearing down on Zouma and Azpi and Jorginho were trying to get close.  As Jorginho ran he was shouting and arm waving at Azpi - go wide - because he had spotted that Southampton had a player (Bertrand?) charging down the wing with James nowhere near, and Azpi did as he was told.  

21 minutes ago, JaneB said:

And I'm not sure TT should be criticising CHO in public.  Doesn't really work.

I'm not sure he has much choice.  If you whip a player off after just 30m on the pitch everything has already been said and there is nothing to cover up.  
I sometimes wonder if managers are really talking to advisers and the posse when they speak openly about players.  I hope that is not necessary here.   Still at least TT is treating CHO as a senior player.

10 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

Droy's heat map was damning. It seems to show a team that was content to pass it around but lacked anyone with the guts to force their way into the box to attempt to score. What with that and the pulling of CHO I hope it doesn't indicate TT instilling  an ethos of retain the ball at all costs, and if you lose it you're out.. Fear is not a great motivation to score goals.

Not my interpretation.  I thought Werner and Mount and Abraham were showing themselves for passes, just the accuracy and weight were poor or they were coming too late to be useful.
To play this kind of game you need players who can either make a lot of time for their colleagues or have an awareness that allows them to use the ball rapidly.
Of course Southampton played with the medium press that was so successful for them in the game at SB, and that we struggled with so much for the past 3 or 4 years.  We'll see more and more of it.  Sarri turned that press into an advantage, because if you do get quality ball through, you have a numerical advantage.

I can't see how this team can function without Jorginho or a similar player.

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5 minutes ago, Faramir said:

How do you know what the expectations were, and what was discussed about style of play etc...?

You speak this stuff as if it were fact.

The obvious.

Rangnick was approached as an interim and TT took an 18 month contract with conditions, which although were not made public, TT has alluded to the expectations of the gods. 

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1 hour ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

What else do you expect. 

TT took the job with a loaded gun at his head. Top 4 or bye bye.

if he doesn’t get the top 4 or winning the CL he’s gone.  

I agree with you that he needs a top ; ; place . So why play negative against a team who rarely threatened  and weird substitutions . surely 3 points against a team who’s in horrible form is a must rather than the hard games coming up . And he’s excuse for odoi coming off doesn’t stand for me  

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Ham   
3 hours ago, chelboy said:

1) Kova is a threat? Since when? I'm a huge fan of Kova but he’s not threatening  and he was worse than Kante today.

2) Him and Kante both like to roam into the same areas and get into eachothers way. Kante roamed those areas better when Jorginho came in and sat. I couldn’t tell who was supposed to be sitting between Kova and Kante as neither want to sit back. 

1) Threat as in he's been the most likely to get the ball beyond the oppo midfield and into a dangerous area. The fact that we didn't score more from the chances he's created says more about our attackers than him. 

2) Agreed and sort of makes my point. After watching Kova recently and especially the last game, Kante should have been used in a deeper area, giving Kovacic freedom to go forward but instead he was literally running around all over the pitch with no discipline. 

As a barrier to break down attacks or win back possession he's brilliant but he's as frustrating as they come at almost everything else.

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10 minutes ago, Faramir said:

How do you know what the expectations were, and what was discussed about style of play etc...?

You speak this stuff as if it were fact.

Does this not ring a bell ?

'There can never be a good time to part ways with a club legend such as Frank. But after lengthy deliberation and consideration it was decided a change is needed now to give the Club time to improve performances and results this season.”

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Blue Rod   
1 minute ago, Faramir said:

He was back in training after the two day break, so that would of been Wednesday. Perhaps this game came too early for match day fitness?

Okay. Thanks for the update. I thought it feels strange. One minutes we have too many attacking players, the next minute, TT looks like he's scraping the barrel for one.

Something really odd with the team today. Ziyech nearly went to sleep after his first touch, inviting pressure before hurriedly hitting his pass. At this level, it does looks odd.

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